how do you guys deal with phase cancelation?

[5dollapizza 10+ year member]

so i hooked my system up to SMARRT, which basically uses pink noise and/or regular music to show peaks/time alignment issues between the actual signal and what is being picked up by the microphone. did tweeters first, then mids, ans finally sub. everything was fine until i put them all together. got lots of out of phase frequencies between 3k and 3.2k. seems no matter how i set my slopes or xrossover frequencies i can't get rid of it in this range. my guess is that it's the cars natural accoustics causing these issues. is there any processors or anything i can get that will let me tune individual frequencies in relation to phase with more adjustability than just 0/180? also what does something like this cost and am i really going to hear the difference? i don't compete at all but am a huge fan of loud but very clean sound. also, could it just be time for a new set of comps? i'm running rf t162s right now for those with sigs turned off. sorry for the lack of paragraph breaks, posting this from my phone waiting for someone.

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[5dollapizza 10+ year member]

bumpsTeer

 

[5dollapizza 10+ year member]

last bump before i find another forum that can actually answer questions besides 'isthis audiobahn amp good enough to power these subs'

 

[rusty_armadillo 10+ year member]

last bump before i find another forum that can actually answer questions besides 'isthis audiobahn amp good enough to power these subs'

Lol at this, so true

 

[bball09124 10+ year member]

Try switching the polarity of one of the tweeters? Idk, just a shot in the dark.

Do the tweets sound bad to you? If it sounds good, who cares if theres some cancellation displayed on a graph.

 

[smgreen20 10+ year member]

Are you running your mids/tweets passive or active. If it's passive more then likely it's from/caused by the xover.

After reading a bunch of back issues of car audio mags there was an article about this, and the question was possed, Why would you want a flat EQ? As it doesn't sound good to 99% of the people out there, myself included. Play some albums you're very familiar with and listen to them in the car. How does it sound to YOU?

JUST BECAUSE THERE'S A DIP HERE/THERE DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL SOUND BAD!

Everyone hears the same, what we perceive is the difference, our tastes or styles is where the difference will come from.

 

[ejschultz 10+ year member]

Are you running your mids/tweets passive or active. If it's passive more then likely it's from/caused by the xover.
After reading a bunch of back issues of car audio mags there was an article about this, and the question was possed, Why would you want a flat EQ? As it doesn't sound good to 99% of the people out there, myself included. Play some albums you're very familiar with and listen to them in the car. How does it sound to YOU?

JUST BECAUSE THERE'S A DIP HERE/THERE DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL SOUND BAD!

Everyone hears the same, what we perceive is the difference, our tastes or styles is where the difference will come from.

I agree with everything this says. I'm trying to get my car flat, with no success as of yet (it's d*mn near impossible without an RTA and without hearing a perfectly flat response previously. I'll probably run the auto EQ and I'll assume that'll get it pretty close to flat). I'm not sure if I'll like how it sounds, but I definitely want to give it a try.

To try and fix your phasing issue, try and run the mids reversed and the tweeters normally. I'm assuming you've played with the polarity on the tweeters already and may or may not have tried it with the mids.

 

[PaulD 10+ year member]

I am assuming your crossover freq between mids and tweets is around 3k, the very nature of a crossover will cause phase issues - not much you can do about this. If you move the EQ 3 or 4 notches and the amplitude doesn't change then don't worry about it.

 

[Chad T 10+ year member]

Are you running your mids/tweets passive or active. If it's passive more then likely it's from/caused by the xover.
After reading a bunch of back issues of car audio mags there was an article about this, and the question was possed, Why would you want a flat EQ? As it doesn't sound good to 99% of the people out there, myself included. Play some albums you're very familiar with and listen to them in the car. How does it sound to YOU?

JUST BECAUSE THERE'S A DIP HERE/THERE DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL SOUND BAD!

Everyone hears the same, what we perceive is the difference, our tastes or styles is where the difference will come from.

I'm more of a home audio guy, but I can vouch that flat or close to flat can/does sound really good at decent volume levels.....to a huge amount of people. At lower levels, it may not sound as good because Fletcher-Munson kicks in. That's where custom EQ or "LOUD" EQ curve adjustments can come in handy.

 

[5dollapizza 10+ year member]

wow i really didn't expect to get this many quality responses to my question. thanks all.

Try switching the polarity of one of the tweeters? Idk, just a shot in the dark.Do the tweets sound bad to you? If it sounds good, who cares if theres some cancellation displayed on a graph.

wouldn't this cause more issues that just the original 3k-3.2k? meaning those may be more in phase, but wouldn't the other frequencies that were previously in phase now be out?

and yes, it sounds great to me, but i'm always on a quest for better. i'm sure anyone who's on this site can appreciate that //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Are you running your mids/tweets passive or active. If it's passive more then likely it's from/caused by the xover.

active

After reading a bunch of back issues of car audio mags there was an article about this, and the question was posed, Why would you want a flat EQ? As it doesn't sound good to 99% of the people out there, myself included. Play some albums you're very familiar with and listen to them in the car. How does it sound to YOU?
JUST BECAUSE THERE'S A DIP HERE/THERE DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL SOUND BAD!

Everyone hears the same, what we perceive is the difference, our tastes or styles is where the difference will come from.

i'm using the system to start with a completely flat and in phase base, then i'll tune to my liking from there. i'm mostly using this to "train" my ear as to what a perfectly time aligned and flat eq should sound like, and running into issues along the way. sorry i forgot to include that in the original post.

To try and fix your phasing issue, try and run the mids reversed and the tweeters normally. I'm assuming you've played with the polarity on the tweeters already and may or may not have tried it with the mids.

i really haven't played with the actual polarity much of the tweeters, i assumed if i was only having issues with a specific set frequency and not all frequencies that flipping one would have an adverse effect. maybe i'm thinking about this all wrong, and, if so, would love for someone to explain this to me.

I am assuming your crossover freq between mids and tweets is around 3k, the very nature of a crossover will cause phase issues - not much you can do about this. If you move the EQ 3 or 4 notches and the amplitude doesn't change then don't worry about it.

yes this is what it was in the passives, so it's what i started around. however, even with moving the xover above and below the problem frequencies, i still get the same issue, which is why i was thinking i would need something external to tune.

I'm more of a home audio guy, but I can vouch that flat or close to flat can/does sound really good at decent volume levels.....to a huge amount of people. At lower levels, it may not sound as good because Fletcher-Munson kicks in. That's where custom EQ or "LOUD" EQ curve adjustments can come in handy.

funny you should say that (the Fletcher-Munson theory). this is actually the reason why i hooked up my car to the system in the first place.

 

[WheresTheButta 10+ year member]

Just a random question - is everything aimed directly on axis? Also, where are you putting the microphone?

Could be something pertaining to dispersion? Try placing the microphone in different spots and see what happens.

 

[5dollapizza 10+ year member]

yes everything is on axis, but i hadn't even thought of that. awesome suggestion. would the tweeters being inverted dome make a difference on this?

the microphone was set exactly where the center of my head would be. the problem with the cancellation only happens with the time alignment set up. i could not find any cancellation in either of the front seats with the time alignment defeated.

 

[ejschultz 10+ year member]

You said you have deficiencies around 3 to 3.5 kHz, correct? If that is the crossover point, flipping the polarity of the tweeters or mids can help and get rid of that phase cancellation.