Hey Christians

In my opinion one of the most convincing arguments for God is that of the existence of moral law. When a small child is ditched in line he somehow knows that "that's not fair!" Why is that? The answer is best given in the reality of the absolute moral law. If a common moral law exists then that necessitates a Moral Law Giver,God. One looks at the Holocaust and concludes that the Germans' actions were "atrocious" and "evil". This might beg the question "Why is killing evil?". The question is best answered by assuming something was able to write this law on our hearts with intentions to leading us to an even greater moral perfection. Once again that something is God.

The Argument is best summed up in the following:

1.There is a universal moral law

2.Such a moral law would imply a Law Giver

3.Thus, God exists as the Law Giver
Studies indicate our moral instincts are a function of biology and evolution. Many non-human mammals display acts of altruism, and humans spread around the world have the same basic set of moral instincts. This indicates it was ingrained within us during the process of evolution and that there are evolutionary benefits.

The "law giver" in your above philosophical outline would be nature, not god. Unless we are defining nature as god, in which case it would be accurate. It does not however hold true if we define "god" as the Christian god.

Also your example of a kid cutting in line is an example of childhood selfishness ("why do you get to cut infront of me?), not morality. Chances are the children infront of the kid who cut in-line won't care nearly as much as those behind him.

 
Thanks for all the replys. It was nice to see all the points of view.

ok So first, I'm new and though I searched for this throughout the forum, I was unable to find anything fitting. If I missed it or someone knows a debate similar to this one, I would love to read it.

My conundrum has been this: How does an individual understand morality without a religion? Let me extrapolate. We have articles and declarations and bills of rights, and we have religious creeds and codes, but we do not have a clear, secular understanding of basic human right and wrong, do we? For example, even the United States Constitution is influenced heavily by religious ideals and morality during the time it was written, and I'd be gallant enough to assume many other cultures' foundations share this fate.

There is the question, here is the debate:

Do you think morality is achievable without a religion? I cannot analyze myself as an example as I was raised a christian and pursued that way of life for years before letting it go. So to sum it up, I know that I am a person with strong moral values, but I have no idea what I would be like were I not influenced from a young age with clear definitions of 'good and evil.' Your most clever thoughts please!

 
You're assuming that the religion is what gave the morality.

If there is no god, then man gave the morality TO the religion, he didn't take it from it. And the evidence we have so far suggests that morality is completely separate from religion.

 
believing in God is fine when it pushes the believer to do good in the community. Believing in God is bad if it makes the believer a pompous ***. I can't tolerate people who breach what I must believe, or try to convert people.
Also, what if a person is living by themselves their whole life? Never heard of God so how is it fair to say he should go to hell?

BS IMO
i Believe. but again u have a point. there are some people that think they are better than you are, that whatever they do is right and if u do something they don't approve of is wrong. Those people are the ones that give believers bad a bad rep

 
I am the Lord your GodYou shall have no other Gods before me

You shall not worship idols

You shall not misuse the name of God

Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy

Yeah, the first five are key. How does that make someone live a moral life? All they are is God demonstrating his egotism, narcissism and jealousy.

Honor your father and mother

If your mother and father abuse and neglect you, you should still honor them?

You shall not murder

Okay, fair enough. Pretty basic moral principle that would have existed without the 10 commandments

You shall not commit adultery

Of all the important things in life, this is one of God's Top 10? Seriously?

You shall not steal

Okay, fair enough. Pretty basic moral principle that would have existed without the 10 commandments

You shall not lie

Pretty basic moral principle that would have existed without the 10 commandments

You shall not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

So basically, god is the only one allowed to be jealous (as demonstrated by the first 5 commandments)?

Seems like maybe god should have learned "Thy shalt not covet thy competing god's worshipers, nor his statues, nor his ***, nor anything that is thy competing god's"

He is a bit hypocritical.
They are open to personal interpretation and apply how people want some don't apply many of them and claim that they do (far far far too many people now that do this). What I said was not to say you have to follow all or any, just said it is a good moral base. I don't go to church but I do have a Cathlic mother and a Mennonite father LOL.

"Thou salt not covet" means a lot more than just thy neighbors belongings.

You can take religion vs science or work them together. Some claimed super scientists claim global warming is all man made and is causing great harm, yet other scientists who actually have a higher degree say otherwise. Fact of the matter though those scientists tried to do a model of the last 10 years with what they claimed happens and when they finished their model they were more off than a farmer's alminac written by a drunken monkey.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Don't read into this too far as what I am saying is not about who is wrong or who is right but rather the variables people believe inbetween and what COULD actually be.

 
TannoH

My conundrum has been this: How does an individual understand morality without a religion?
Though his sense of self-preservation. This is an intuition that does not have to be taught to anyone.

Let me extrapolate. We have articles and declarations and bills of rights, and we have religious creeds and codes, but we do not have a clear, secular understanding of basic human right and wrong, do we? For example, even the United States Constitution is influenced heavily by religious ideals and morality during the time it was written, and I'd be gallant enough to assume many other cultures' foundations share this fate.
I have been taught that the United States constitution was based on secular values and on the enlightenment. On the other hand, USA became one of the most religious governments. I also believe the US constitution was based on "natural rights", which is based on "natural law". A philosophical position that rights can be derived from nature. The founders who wrote the US constitution aren't as religious as later revisionists would like you to believe. Thomas Jefferson has many quotes which shows his disapproval of Christianity and religion. In fact, he wrote his own Bible, where he basically threw out all the supernatural stuff.

Also, Christianity doesn't have much of a moral framework of its own. It borrows heavily from Jewish sources, then throws most of it out again. Modern Christianity gets more of its morality and customs from cultural sources than religious sources. As a former Christian, I would say that "strong sense of morality" is actually "pious arrogance", the exact kind that Christianity was trying to fight in the beginning.

Do you think morality is achievable without a religion? I cannot analyze myself as an example as I was raised a christian and pursued that way of life for years before letting it go. So to sum it up, I know that I am a person with strong moral values, but I have no idea what I would be like were I not influenced from a young age with clear definitions of 'good and evil.' Your most clever thoughts please!
Whether you, or the people who made up those rules, believe that they are what some divine power wants, or they came up with them due to practical social pressures, or they came out of philosophical introspection and debate, the result is the same. The society you live in indoctrinated you with the morals and values prevalent in that society. In your particular society those values and morals happened to be those of the prevalent religion. But that is incidental. If your family and other social influences as a child had not been religious, the values and morals you learned as a child might have been somewhat different, but probably not any more different than if you had just been raised by parents of some other religion.

And in any event, if you investigated the issue deeply, I think you would find that the particular values and morals you learned were more a function of the particular culture you were raised in, than your specific religion. For example, a Catholic, Lutheran, Jew, Muslim, and atheist, all born and raised in midwest America, are all going to end up with pretty similar values. They would probably all have far more in common morally with each other than, for example, the Muslim would with a Muslim from Iran, or the Catholic would with a Catholic from 500 years ago.

But yes, "morality" is definitely achievable without religion. I know how this doesn't make sense to some of you. Your morality is defined by the authority of a deity. No deity, no morality. But how do you know your morality is better than, say, Islam or Zorastrian morality? Try to give a reason that doesn't involve a reference to your cultural situation. In asking this question, you have to justify your morality against others, so you must have a standard for morality, (even if implicit), by which you measure standards. You probably have a moral standard to differentiate the different sects within your religion. If you can do that, then anyone can do it, even atheists. In the end, the deity dictating morality is less important than the moral justification you give yourself based on cultural values.

 
"Sometimes I look at the beauty and complexity of the universe and know that god created it.

Then I look at the beauty and complexity of god and get confused."

 
So today your jebus was nailed on a wood plank to die for you so you can fly to live with him on the clouds and be happy ever after.
It always amazes me how many of you still believe this. I mean, can you prove any of this?
Pretty immature on your part to mock someone's beliefs. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 
You can mock someone's political beliefs, you can mock the way they dress, you can basically mock anything. Religion is not out of bounds just because it's hard to justify.

 
Pretty immature on your part to mock someone's beliefs. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
If I believed that walruses could fly or that I could read minds, Im sure that I would be mocked. I cant prove either of them, yet I have my faith that it can happen...Anyone who mocks me is immature.

 
jeez this has gotten long.

As a Christian the most interesting part of us humans to me is the fact that God created us in His own image. Now think about that, He created us like Him. So we have some God-like qualities (reason, blah blah blah), and God-like tendencies (self-righteousness, etc.). I totally understand then why some reject God, because that would make them feel like they are less-than when the Godliness inside is saying how great and wonderful they are all by themselves. its an interesting dynamic.

carry on

 
I love how half of this thread consists of religious people using the good ol' scare tactic, "if you don't believe, you go to hell." I seem to hear that a lot as a reason as to why believers believe what they do..."I believe because when I die I don't want to go to hell." What a sorry excuse/reason to believe in something.

 
If I believed that walruses could fly or that I could read minds, Im sure that I would be mocked. I cant prove either of them, yet I have my faith that it can happen...Anyone who mocks me is immature.
I just think in the world there are certain moral lines in the sand that one doesn't cross even for laughs.

I'm not a big fan of Islam, but you would never see me mock a muslim about their faith.

Maybe the fact they **** sheep or camels in the desert, but never about their faith.

 
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