Eclipse CD8454 vs. CD8053 ?

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

THE BLA DOES NOT OFFER A 'TRUE' BALANCED SIGNAL, although close- unless of course you have amplifiers that accept a balanced signal via a DIN cable ZAPCO Symbilink

No way through the use of RCA's (2way conductors) can you achieve a REAL balanced signal- hence those who run ZAP's (or other Balanced capable amps) are truly ones benefiting from an 8053/BLA combo.

 

[Hoot 10+ year member]

Okay, wait a minute, johnecon2001, if you insert the BLA just behind the head unit,*prior* to your lengthy cable run to the back, are you not defeating the ENTIRE purpose of a balanced 16-volt signal????

Your head unit, when running the multiple pairs of RCAs (2 for each channel) produces 16 total, balanced volts. The BLA then converts the signal of these multiple RCA pairs back to 10-volts so that your amp can handle the input, and in doing this it converts the RCA runs from 6 pairs back to 3.

Okay, so the theory behind higher output voltage is, ulimately a stronger signal means less noise and an amplifier that works less hard (runs cooler/less distortion)—correct? Therefore, in order to take full advantage of the balanced 16-volt signal, you need those 16 volts shooting through your RCAs the entire length of your vehicle where all kinds of extraneous noise can be picked up and added to the source.

Additionally, we actually lose signal voltage over the length of our longest cable run. As you pointed out, a stronger signal voltage means greater signal strength and the ability to lower your gain settings. Soooo... why have a 16-volt signal if 16-volts is simply going to travel a single meter????? I am confused. Why not keep the signal as "hot" as you can extending the entire length of the car? Right now, not only is your signal unbalanced, but I really don't think it is any stronger than what it would be minus the BLA.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Does the BLA convert the unbalanced out of the HU and send balanced to the amps, or balanced out of the HU and send unbalanced to the amps???

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

Does the BLA convert the unbalanced out of the HU and send balanced to the amps, or balanced out of the HU and send unbalanced to the amps???

The Hu does not provide a balanced signal prior to the BLA, the BLA converts it to balanced. A single ended system(rcas) + a ground =balanced line. BLA basically is a line driver that grounds the HU signal.

8v unbalanced from the HU----> BLA-----> 8v/16v balanced signal ---> to an amp whose gain stage is internally grounded(balanced) to accept and process a balanced signal

If the amp is not 'balanced', the effect altogether is called 'pseudo-balanced'

From my understanding, speaking with Zap owners they say the Symbilink RCA to DIN(balanced) should be as close to the amplifier as possible if you are working from a single ended(RCA) to Balanced application. An actual symbilink balanced converter should be as close to the source as possible with the lengthy run of the DIN cable to the amp being a non issue being its balanced. BUT in the case of the Eclipse BLA it takes RCA's and spits out RCA's, so lengthy runs in a way is counterproductive.

I would think in order to have as CLOSE to a true high voltage balanced system using the BLA you would need to be running Zapco's and a Symbilink right after the BLA.

I dunno any other company using balanced systems.

In reality a TRUE BALANCED signal is one that is balanced in every componet- from the source outputs to the amplifiers gain/input stage

here's a linky I have in my archives...

http://www.balanced.com/faq/balanced.html

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

hence the reason why the ECLIPSEs BLA is RIP....a cool notion, but not in an industry not supporting it. ZAPCO has its own Symbilink system that one could use with ANY HU, and they are currently the amp of choice (not many other choices to go balanced)

The great thing of using an Eclipse 8v tho is the signal is the hottest coming from the source in comparison to the competition.

 

[Hoot 10+ year member]

Again, as I understand it (though I don't run one), the idea behind the BLA is that it is said to effectively cancel out the noise thus send only the audio signal to the amplifier/s. This is what it does - it is a noise killer.

So... again, why in the heck would you mount the BLA up near the head unit? It makes sense only to cancel the noise immediately prior to the amplifier. If you do it up front, you've just left all that vulnerable cable running the length of your vehicle prey to what the BLA was supposed to be combating in the first place.

Also, just for fun... see post #6 in this thread by someone who thinks just the opposite regarding which balanced setup (Zapco or Eclipse) is better:

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=015186

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

I still need to order a BLA

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Thanks 3.5Max. Though, it is more than just a "single ended system" with a ground. It is fully balanced (regular and inverted signals with matching impedences and a reference ground). Which is why I think you are misunderstanding how it works Hoot.

Again, as I understand it (though I don't run one), the idea behind the BLA is that it is said to effectively cancel out the noise thus send only the audio signal to the amplifier/s. This is what it does - it is a noise killer.
So... again, why in the heck would you mount the BLA up near the head unit? It makes sense only to cancel the noise immediately prior to the amplifier. If you do it up front, you've just left all that vulnerable cable running the length of your vehicle prey to what the BLA was supposed to be combating in the first place.

The BLA combats noise by sending the amps two input signal with matching impedences at the reference ground. You want the run of balanced cable to be the length of your car. Why? Because, if you run the unbalanced cable the length of you car, then into the BLA right before the amps, the BLA will interpret any induced noise (from the unbalanced run) as part of the original input signal. So it will faithfully send that noise on to the amplifiers. But, if you send the BLA a "noise free" input signal (straight out of the HU), THEN run the balanced cables the length of the car, the balanced signals will "cancel out" any induced noise throughout the long run.

Make sense?

Also, I don't see what's so wrong with doing it Eclipse's way. My amps accept dual RCA balanced inputs, so I just may use the BLA when my 8053 gets here. But first I gotta figure out if my old school amps from the tape deck era will like 16V input //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

 

[groov2 10+ year member]

I went to Magnolia yesterday and they matched Car Toys for the price on the 8454. I am so pumped...time to get rid of the 9835 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

Hoot, the BLA is a line driver also- i noticed you edited

Squeek the effects of doing it Eclipse's way is definitly an upgrade, productive difference as long as your amps accept balanced In's. Everyone that has used it has claimed the difference and a noise free system. By far the closest thing to an ideal balanced signal you can achieve in the automobile.

The day the begin making internally balanced sources for the car you can assure they will be mucho dinero. And a whole new meaning to high end HU's.....In the meantime why not settle for the next best thing? hehe...

 

[Hoot 10+ year member]

3.5Max, I did edit... because it is confusing... and I am not alone. I don't understand how a line-driver is also a converter if the conversion is from 16V *down* to 10V.

Yesterday, post #6 of the SD thread I linked us to was the last post. Today, more posts have been added. Read on... this guy (solobaricks3) uses the BLA... and check out what he reports later in the thread: the head unit *IS* the source of the 16-volts (like I asserted) - not the BLA, and... the BLA is mounted in the back. This guy owns a BLA and uses a BLA so somebody (not sure who) has "got there wires crossed." //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

See thread again: http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=042642;p=1#000007

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

LOL....Ok, so...which way is it?? Does the BLA convert from unbalanced to balanced, or convert balanced to unbalanced. Cause that's going to determine where it goes //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[freshbondoscent 10+ year member]

baaahhhhh go digital and hush......just keep the dust outa my light!!!

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

3.5Max, I did edit... because it is confusing... and I am not alone. I don't understand how a line-driver is also a converter if the conversion is from 16V *down* to 10V.
Yesterday, post #6 of the SD thread I linked us to was the last post. Today, more posts have been added. Read on... this guy (solobaricks3) uses the BLA... and check out what he reports later in the thread: the head unit *IS* the source of the 16-volts (like I asserted) - not the BLA, and... the BLA is mounted in the back. This guy owns a BLA and uses a BLA so somebody (not sure who) has "got there wires crossed." //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

See thread again: http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=042642;p=1#000007

the 8053 does not make 16v without the BLA-hence the BLA has some line driver duties- voltage doesnt mysteriously double.

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

LOL....Ok, so...which way is it?? Does the BLA convert from unbalanced to balanced, or convert balanced to unbalanced. Cause that's going to determine where it goes //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

unbalanced to balanced....if your amp doesnt have an input stage to accept a balanced signal-it seems that it sees 10v unbalanced if the BLA is used-this was clarified to me by a dealer, who had it clarified by an Eclipse rep. So Hoot it does raise voltage, hence a line driver.