actually those subs at best buy were 250 each brand new..he got them for 190 brand new for both...so i would say its pretty **** good for that price...and ive heard them...there just as loud as the type r's maybe only alittle quiter....but still decent....there the brand new models ..which r better then the old ones cuz they dont allow as much air to flow through them and they will not skip bass lines...so the new ones are better...i would say in rf the powers r only better...but for punch there decent............u all just hate on rf