Difference Between 10" and 12"

[Tonyguy 10+ year member]

False. Again, transient response is a factor of the inductance of the coil, not the diameter of the cone. There are 18" pro audio drivers out there that will flat out own most all car subs in transient response.

I love it when this guy chimes in. I learn a lot from him. Thanks helotaxi.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

De nada.

 

[tigerf117 10+ year member]

So what spec would reveal the transient response of a sub, or is there none that you will see online. And its just something you learn from other people/reviews? I'm looking for a single sub that will be ported and be able to keep up with PRSs running 140W RMS to each. Preferably a 10 to save on space, with a $250top (each granted) budget. Whoa, sorry for the threadjack, I will post a new message if need be

 

[generalGOTCHA 10+ year member]

I love it when this guy chimes in. I learn a lot from him. Thanks helotaxi.

x2 on that //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Im considering a pair of MJ-18's in my VAN //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif to replace my pair of 10" Orion P series. My only concern was the 18's not having the transient responce of my 10's ... since xmax for my 10's is 17mm, and the MJ-18's I believe is 13mm .. I was thinking I am going to loose the punchyness of my 10's by going to the 18.

This is the one thing that I worry about most. Will an 18 inch subwoofer MJ-18 to use as an example, by itself with its specs still make things move like my 10's do ??

My pair of Orion P series 10" in 34hz tuned infinite baffel bounces my steering column shifter , and I never seen a pair of subs do that when they are 12feet away from the dash lol.. making my windshield wipers bounce off the window.

I worry i will lose this phenominon that me and my cousins smoke out too //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[bigbang 10+ year member]

Ok, I retract my statement on transient responce. I will say that a more massive cone requires more energy to move than a lighter one, indisputable physics, so the heavier cone will require a more powerful motor structure to offset the higher mass and thats where inductance, magnetic fields, and all that calc based physics comes in, which I may add I bombed. If you put the same motor on a low and high mass cone, the low mass cone should have a better transient, correct? Like ribbon tweeters with ultra light diaphrams.

As for a low Fs, I still use it for predicting the character of a speaker. I had heard to select a woofer with Fs in the 20's for SQ. Choose Fs in the 30's for street bass, and higher than that for SPL. Does that in itself not show Fs is a sign of the woofers design potential? If you have a silver bell, and a gong (that is the word for that big asian drum right?) the one with a lower Fs playes a lower note. For a woofer, it is more eficient aproaching its FS.

For comparing two speakers, I use my known box volume and plug Vas and Fs into the standard equations. I find that the smaller woofer, despite higher Fs will offset this with a much lower Vas and thus end up with a lower F3 in the same sized box as a larger woofer. Of course a bigger woofer is better all around if you have all the space you want, but for a fixed volume and ignoring efficiency, I find a smaller woofer tends to win in low frequency extension. Although to be fair, I havent crunched any numbers on woofers smaller than a 10. I doubt a 8" could have a lower F3 in the same box as a 15", and if it did it would be much less loud at any referenced power level and frequency anyway (in a subwoofers frequency band). Anyway, I'm a novice and I'm still learning so lets keep up the discusion. I just like hearing from people that know their stuff versus people that cant even tell me the difference between a sealed and ported box. Thanks.

 

[showmak 10+ year member]

So which one do you recommend for Lounge and Chill Out musics, (BuddhaBar)???

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Ok, I retract my statement on transient responce. I will say that a more massive cone requires more energy to move than a lighter one, indisputable physics, so the heavier cone will require a more powerful motor structure to offset the higher mass and thats where inductance, magnetic fields, and all that calc based physics comes in, which I may add I bombed. If you put the same motor on a low and high mass cone, the low mass cone should have a better transient, correct? Like ribbon tweeters with ultra light diaphrams.

A heavier moving assembly will not move as far as a lighter one on the same motor and power. When fed the same signal, both drivers will reproduce it, as an example, the lighter driver will move 1/2" each way from rest and the heavier only 1/4". The lighter driver will be louder (assuming the same piston area) because it displaces more air. It will move 2" total for every full cycle. The heavier driver will move 1" total. Because it isn't moving as far, its peak velocity and thus the rate of change required to switch direction isn't as large, however its still moving the same number of cycles per second. It's total velocity will be less but its transient response will be the same. Transient response is defined as the rate of change of current applied. The resistance to change in current is inductance. Mass has nothing to do with it. Mass effects sensitivity. How far the driver moves with a given signal. It does not dictate how fast the magnetic field in the coil reverses polarity.

Ribbon tweets are super efficient because of their super light diaphrams. Their inductance is very low because they are an electrostatic device and don't have a conventional coil. The low inductance gives them their great transient response.

If mass were a factor in transient response, ported enclosures would have absolutely terrible transient response right at resonance. At resonance the mass of air in the port and its inertia are working aginst the movement of the cone and the effective mass of the moving assmebly is extremely high. This doesn't effect the transient response at all.

As for a low Fs, I still use it for predicting the character of a speaker. I had heard to select a woofer with Fs in the 20's for SQ. Choose Fs in the 30's for street bass, and higher than that for SPL. Does that in itself not show Fs is a sign of the woofers design potential? If you have a silver bell, and a gong (that is the word for that big asian drum right?) the one with a lower Fs playes a lower note. For a woofer, it is more eficient aproaching its FS.

Those are all gross generalizations that don't nearly always hold true. If everything was done free-air then Fs would matter a lot. Once you add the box and the car it matters very little, it IS a factor but not nearly the only one or even the most important.

For comparing two speakers, I use my known box volume and plug Vas and Fs into the standard equations. I find that the smaller woofer, despite higher Fs will offset this with a much lower Vas and thus end up with a lower F3 in the same sized box as a larger woofer. Of course a bigger woofer is better all around if you have all the space you want, but for a fixed volume and ignoring efficiency, I find a smaller woofer tends to win in low frequency extension. Although to be fair, I havent crunched any numbers on woofers smaller than a 10. I doubt a 8" could have a lower F3 in the same box as a 15", and if it did it would be much less loud at any referenced power level and frequency anyway (in a subwoofers frequency band). Anyway, I'm a novice and I'm still learning so lets keep up the discusion. I just like hearing from people that know their stuff versus people that cant even tell me the difference between a sealed and ported box. Thanks.

The difference in loudness is what determines how well a driver really hits the lows. Rather than looking at F3 look at actual SPL at the freq in question. The larger driver will most always be louder regardless of the realtive F3s involved.

Run a plot of the JL 10w6 (original) and the RE XXX 12. Put them both in the same 1.5 cf box (.707 alignment for the 10w6 and .62 for the XXX). The JL has the lower Fs of 23hz vs the 27 hz for the XXX. It also has the lower in-box F3 (38.5Hz vs 43 Hz). Now feed them the same 100w signal. The curves meet @50 Hz. Above that the XXX is about 2 dB louder below that the difference is less than 1dB.

Now add in a JL 12W6 (original) in the same 1.5cf box and same 100w it will walk all over both of them down to below 20hz. Which is better at the lows?

I'll give my vote to the larger sub for starters. From there it becomes a factor of the combination of Fs, Vas and Qts and the amount of space I have available.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Just like the last thread, inductance is only one characteristic: the driver's own ability to dampen movement is a big part of transient response, manifesting itself in overshoot and ringing.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Double post.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Just like the last thread, inductance is only one characteristic: the driver's own ability to dampen movement is a big part of transient response, manifesting itself in overshoot and ringing.

That is not a factor of transient response though. If the cone breaks up, it breaks up. It will affect sound quality, and it means that the cone is underbuilt. Overshoot and sloppy recentering with no signal is a factor in the decay of the sub but not its actual transient response either.

Sound characteristics under hard transients are really a separate topic. That is almost wholly a factor of the stiffness of the cone and suspension damping.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

That is not a factor of transient response though. If the cone breaks up, it breaks up. It will affect sound quality, and it means that the cone is underbuilt. Overshoot and sloppy recentering with no signal is a factor in the decay of the sub but not its actual transient response either.
Sound characteristics under hard transients are really a separate topic. That is almost wholly a factor of the stiffness of the cone and suspension damping.

Which is the basis of the entire misunderstanding.

If a driver has relatively poor decay characteristics at a given frequency, what does that sound like? Usually, it sounds pretty sloppy. So when someone says that a larger sub sounds sloppier than a smaller one, this is exactly what they are referring to. Though the term transient response previously referred to simply the response to a change in current, it has been used in this thread (and just about every other one) as a term referring to the "accuracy" or "sloppy-ness" of any driver. While I agree that there is a better way of differentiating between transient response and decay, in the context that transient response has been used in this thread, my argument is 100% legitimate.

If you disagree, let's define exactly what we consider transient response to be, what we consider decay, and what contributes to a "sloppy" sound. Should be easy to bang out from there.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Which is the basis of the entire misunderstanding.
If a driver has relatively poor decay characteristics at a given frequency, what does that sound like? Usually, it sounds pretty sloppy. So when someone says that a larger sub sounds sloppier than a smaller one, this is exactly what they are referring to. Though the term transient response previously referred to simply the response to a change in current, it has been used in this thread (and just about every other one) as a term referring to the "accuracy" or "sloppy-ness" of any driver. While I agree that there is a better way of differentiating between transient response and decay, in the context that transient response has been used in this thread, my argument is 100% legitimate.

If you disagree, let's define exactly what we consider transient response to be, what we consider decay, and what contributes to a "sloppy" sound. Should be easy to bang out from there.

well i think it is safe to say that inductance is the major factor in the transient responce... ok so we gotta find out what inductance is for a sub right? well inductance is also a resistance and a component of a speakers "nominal impedance...

ok so if you take a sub's nominal impedance then subtract the other factors that leaves you with inductance right?

 

[Kaltenberg 10+ year member]

Ok thank you guys. I will stay with my ne 12 until i can afford to buy another 12 and a new box.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

That is not a factor of transient response though.

The weight of the cone only affects the speaker's sensitivity (efficiency), it does not affect transient response.

I would disagree.

You can't define transient response as only the impulse response, which is dictated by inductance. This is the factor that determines how "quick" or "fast" the speaker is, and as rightly argued many times over on the internet (and shown in that paper by Adire) mass is not a factor in. Mass is going to affect the sensitivity, but not the impulse response or "quickness".

But transient response is the complete time domain behavior, including both impulse and step response. Step response is going show as overshoot and ringing, and is dictated by system Q. And by looking at the equations for Qes and Qms, it becomes readily apparently that mass is going to play a roll in this aspect of transient response. Is it the only factor? No. Can you make a generalization about transient response based solely on mass? No. Is it going to affect the "quickness" of a speaker? No.

But it certainly is a contributing factor in the complete time domain response, and hence the transient response, of a speaker.

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

Some other members and i have been arguing about this whole transient response thing in another thread. In that thread, thadman stated that differences in subs' transient responses are inaudible because the panels in a vehicle resonate for a while after the original note plays. True story?