Cone Area vs Box Efficiency

[Full Tilt 10+ year member]

Just a basic hypothetical question about which would not only be easier to gain output, but which would have the most potential.

If somebody were to make a box (or even a wall), as far as output is concerned, would it be smarter to have less cone area in a really well-built box (4th/6th order) or try to get as much cone area in as possible while keeping them in a proper sized, simple ported box?

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[neo_styles 10+ year member]

Depends on the vehicle. Different cabins will require different treatments. A 4th may rock the crud out of a trunk car and perform poopy in a truck or SUV. Also depends on the sub and how it plots in each. Can't really develop a thumb rule for this one and it's one thing I'm sad to admit HexiBase understands (though the guy's still a cocky prick)

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

There's no replacement for displacement. Assuming ample box volume more cone area in a traditional wall is likely best and simplest. Port at the top if you meter on the floor, port behind driver's side if you meter DB Drag style. Port wherever you like or is practical if you don't care about numbers.

You may be able to get better gains with exotic alignments or even a true horn type design, but that's more likely to be a failure and waste of wood than anything. I'll go as far as to say most of the super big builds that use 4th order use enough power and cone area that they'd do the same numbers out of a sealed box.

 

[n8skow 10+ year member]

Alan Dante, Craig Butler, Scotty VanRipper, Danny Hays, Scott Owens, Team Riprock - all 180+ db vehicles - and use (in the case of Owens - 'used') bandpass variations.

Go ahead and tell them they should all switch to simple sealed enclosures to gain on the meter... Report back.

The 'no replacement for displacement' is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion. Fewer woofers in an optimal enclosure versus cramming more woofers in a less optimal enclosure is not only going to suffer performance wise - but far out weigh the cost of ruining multiple sheets of wood.

There's no replacement for displacement. Assuming ample box volume more cone area in a traditional wall is likely best and simplest. Port at the top if you meter on the floor, port behind driver's side if you meter DB Drag style. Port wherever you like or is practical if you don't care about numbers.
You may be able to get better gains with exotic alignments or even a true horn type design, but that's more likely to be a failure and waste of wood than anything. I'll go as far as to say most of the super big builds that use 4th order use enough power and cone area that they'd do the same numbers out of a sealed box.

 

[fasfocus00 5,000+ posts]

not a good comparison as they are not related. box efficiency vs power with respect to a specific sub makes more sense.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Alan Dante, Craig Butler, Scotty VanRipper, Danny Hays, Scott Owens, Team Riprock - all 180+ db vehicles - and use (in the case of Owens - 'used') bandpass variations.Go ahead and tell them they should all switch to simple sealed enclosures to gain on the meter... Report back.

The 'no replacement for displacement' is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion. Fewer woofers in an optimal enclosure versus cramming more woofers in a less optimal enclosure is not only going to suffer performance wise - but far out weigh the cost of ruining multiple sheets of wood.

I did say assuming adequate box volume, and I also said that they're capable of big gains.

Obviously world record holders aren't what I meant, I was thinking the builds that are a dozen 18's or a couple dozen 12's and generally the ones that play music. How much wood and how many man hours do you think it takes to get to 180dB type builds?

 

[bgowdy 5,000+ posts]

Depends on the vehicle. Different cabins will require different treatments. A 4th may rock the crud out of a trunk car and perform poopy in a truck or SUV. Also depends on the sub and how it plots in each. Can't really develop a thumb rule for this one and it's one thing I'm sad to admit HexiBase understands (though the guy's still a cocky prick)

^^^THIS. been there and done. my friend had a 4th order for 1 18 in a single cab blow through and it very well. Then i wanted to try that 4th in my truck with the same 18(we had the same sub) and it sounded like crap and wasnt loud at all in my blazer. The same box was built into a wall in a honda civic and the box did well with a different sub and that sub was a 15. lol idk

 

[SounDrive Pro Seller]

^^^THIS. been there and done. my friend had a 4th order for 1 18 in a single cab blow through and it very well. Then i wanted to try that 4th in my truck with the same 18(we had the same sub) and it sounded like crap and wasnt loud at all in my blazer. The same box was built into a wall in a honda civic and the box did well with a different sub and that sub was a 15. lol idk

If it did well with a 15 and not an 18 that makes me think the box was too small. If a box sounds like crap it isn't the vehicle's fault.

 

[bgowdy 5,000+ posts]

If it did well with a 15 and not an 18 that makes me think the box was too small. If a box sounds like crap it isn't the vehicle's fault.

orignally it was built for a 18. And in the OP box builder had it in his single cab cut through and it was very loud. Then i tried it in my blazer with same exact 18 and it was not loud at all and sounded like crap. Then the box and built it into a wall in a civic and this guy only had a 15 so he put it in the box and it did very well also. so we tried it in 3 diff scenarios and 2 of 3 worked well.

 

[n8skow 10+ year member]

Then you accept that there 'is' a replacement for displacement?

Okay, world record holder are out of the discussion - what builds are you referring to exactly that would be louder sealed than bandpassed?

As far as amount of wood and hours to build - the original post said this was a 'hypothetical' discussion - so why does it matter how much wood or time was required to get these people where they are?

I did say assuming adequate box volume, and I also said that they're capable of big gains.
Obviously world record holders aren't what I meant, I was thinking the builds that are a dozen 18's or a couple dozen 12's and generally the ones that play music. How much wood and how many man hours do you think it takes to get to 180dB type builds?

 

[Full Tilt 10+ year member]

Then you accept that there 'is' a replacement for displacement?
Okay, world record holder are out of the discussion - what builds are you referring to exactly that would be louder sealed than bandpassed?

As far as amount of wood and hours to build - the original post said this was a 'hypothetical' discussion - so why does it matter how much wood or time was required to get these people where they are?

I was more referring to a very nice bandpass enclosure for less cone area vs more cone area in a proper ported box. I'm not even questioning cramming subs into a small space with sealed designs or tiny boxes, because we all know how that usually ends up.

(By the way, GET TO MAF.)

 

[n8skow 10+ year member]

Ma-ma-ma-MAF?

=)

I was more referring to a very nice bandpass enclosure for less cone area vs more cone area in a proper ported box. I'm not even questioning cramming subs into a small space with sealed designs or tiny boxes, because we all know how that usually ends up.
(By the way, GET TO MAF.)