3 way vs. 4 way systems

[RAM_Designs 5,000+ posts]

i have found that running a dedicated midrange driver from around 200Hz - 5kHz allows you to cover the entire vocal range without any crossover points - because crossover points are where you run into phase interference, comb filtering, etc. ITD, IID, PLD, and HRTF all play a role in what you hear. good SQ systems address this in both driver placement/installation as well as crossover points. where you put the drivers will also determine what crossover points you should use.
i like a separate midbass driver (60-200Hz) because it takes that excursion out of the midrange. while a full range driver can reproduce a wide range of frequencies, the accuracy drops off as the driver is pushed harder. this is because few drivers are "underhung" and as a result, as the coil moves out of the voice coil gap - you lose control. this means the higher frequencies will be distorted as the driver loses control. a dedicated midbass pretty much solves that problem.

if you don't want to be very loud, then the fewer drivers you have, the better off you are. keep it simple.

but if you want higher volumes, separate drivers are where you'll get that volume AND clarity.

another reason for a dedicated midrange is placement. as i've said before, locating midbass in the kicks is difficult. midbass in doors is easy. a midrange in the kicks is easier as it is smaller (4" typ.) and requires less airspace for the frequency range. with my kick mids and door midbass, 160-200Hz is a good crossover point to keep bass in my sound stage. a crossover point above 200Hz causes my kick drum to move out of my sound stage. that is what my system does as a result of my driver selection/placement. each system is different.

if you have enough midbass, you can increase your sub crossover point. if you have T/A you can overlap midbass and sub so that you keep low bass in your sound stage as well. for example, my midbass have a 63Hz 6dB/oct high pass on them and my subs have a 80Hz 24dB/oct low pass. you cannot locate my subs, as my bass is in my sound stage. if my midbass is weaker, then i have to lower my sub crossover point to prevent localization. and yes, you can localize subs due to harmonics. while they are given frequencies lower than their crossover point, they can reproduce harmonics which you can and will locate.

active crossovers are pretty much required for testing. once you nail down your crossover points, then you could go passive if you wanted. but why waste the power? go active and have slope flexibility.

i'm very happy with a sub/midbass/midrange/tweeter system and i'll keep that recipe for a long time.

Great post. I was about to post something similar, but definitely not so detailed.

Cliffs: dedicated midbass and midrange speakers = win

 

[Falcons 5,000+ posts]

I was hoping you would post. As ram said excellent infO and I'm definately going to put all of this into mind while building. The pics are really easy to understand also. Your the sq king lol thanks bro

 

[Falcons 5,000+ posts]

And could you refer me to a nice processor that let's me set the crossover points and the t/a? And how would I go about setting the t/a? I'm new to this but I really would like to learn and you know a lot about it. Pm me if you can thanks

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

there are many processors on the market, but for sub/midbass/midrange/tweeter you need an 8-channel processor. that narrows the field a bit. anything with 8 channels will have everything you need - time alignment, crossovers, EQ, phase.

you learn by experimenting and listening. T/A can be done based on path length alone, but in doing so you ignore the vehicle acoustics and phase interference. this can work in some cars, depending on speaker placement and freq. response. as you adjust T/A you listen for instrument placement. i recommend listening to selected tracks in headphones then monitors and paying attention (even taking notes) as to vocal and instrument placement. you can't assume that all music has vocals centered. you need to evaluate your reference tracks on some nice home/pro stuff first. i use >$50k home audio 2 channel setups as one of my references. if you can find shops like that and get to chatting with the staff (this is where my job title comes in handy) you can usually spend a decent amount of time listening with zero intention of buying. course, you also name drop those locations for others and that can generate business.

you can steer the soundstage with T/A. you can place instruments/vocals in the soundstage, or make it sound like you are immersed in music (even with front stage only). how to set T/A depends on your goals and the reference material you have. i have several people listen to my systems, each with expertise in critical listening, to help me with T/A. in doing so, you learn; and combined with your own critical listening skills, you can build something special.

i'm always experimenting. my next experiment is going to be with small, full-range drivers in the dash. i'm going to replace my tweeter with a 2"-3" full range driver. i did that last week with a Peerless 2" and i'm very surprised. next i'll buy a selection of 2"-3" drivers to experiment with. some tang band, some vifa, dayton RS 3" truncated, etc. the main issue with tweeters in a car is diffraction. tweeter spheres mostly solve that problem, but you still have discrete hard reflections that result in phase interference. i need to buy some good tweeters for spheres as well (selling my Oz 4" and tweeter to another).

 

[Falcons 5,000+ posts]

Alright thanks man. Got a lot to learn i see haha. Glad I made this thread so it doesn't just help me out but others as well

 

[06goat 10+ year member]

This whole thread filled my mind with fuck

 

[WheresTheButta 10+ year member]

Been said already, but a four way system (three-way front) will allow you greater flexibility with speaker placement and also will allow the setup to play much louder while retaining fidelity. It's much more complicated to tune a three-way front stage though - so be prepared. I took the easy way out and used a MS-8, but if you want to tune it yourself, be prepared to spend a lot of time.

 

[dragnix 5,000+ posts]

I wanna get the MS-8, but that's an expensive piece of equipment

 

[Bumpin' Goalie 10+ year member]

It sure is nice having guys like keep_hope_alive actively around. Their detailed replies save me a bunch of time, as everything is just about covered, not to mention good to read.

I'm starting to notice an increase in SQ inquiries lately, and I like it. Keep it up fellas!

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

thanks guys.

i also like seeing people ask about how to make music sound better. i am happy to take time to explain some of this. i don't usually reply to threads about just getting more bass.

i believe that you learn through both research and experimentation. it's been said before, but deserves repeating; the system will only sound as good as the installation. don't rush, take your time, and have fun.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

The highend midrange/bass drivers can be crossed at 80hz with 125 per driver..

The hertz helix zapco focal and Cdt es are prett grea 2 way sets..

 

[Bumpin' Goalie 10+ year member]

thanks guys.
i also like seeing people ask about how to make music sound better. i am happy to take time to explain some of this. i don't usually reply to threads about just getting more bass.

i believe that you learn through both research and experimentation. it's been said before, but deserves repeating; the system will only sound as good as the installation. don't rush, take your time, and have fun.

Bravo. With you around I think I just might take a vacation from most threads!

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

If you use drivers that Don't have enough Xmax your going to have problems..

More speaker is almost never the better option..

the less sources you have the better..

Crossover point depends on frequency response and output of the individual drivers..

People cross there subs so low because the sub stage is so much louder it pulls the soundstage to the rear..

Countless times I've used 70 and even 80 on my woofer and you would never know I had a woofer behind you..

 

[Falcons 5,000+ posts]

Yeah inthought I needed a new sub but I found out that with 4 coaxials I have almost no speaker stage. For example in two step by dj unk when it does the high to low sweep it goes *nothing* *small boom* *slightly bigger boom* *boom* *BOOM!!!*

So pretty much I can't hit anything higher than 70 hertz lol