What is optimal vs what is necessary

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

There are many points here that I have been trying to press every now and then but the flooded market of UPS batteries makes it hard to get the point across when several unaware people chime in with minimal experience or knowledge.

To go along with what Mechman is saying, the other issues of course is that most do not just play their systems for short periods. Most here will abuse the system to with an inch of it's life or worse.

Just remember, money spent on your electrical is actually saving money in the end.

WTF does the bolded part mean???

 

[quackhead 10+ year member]

I usually try to stay above 12.5v-12.8v. If voltage doesn't go below that on any given day, then there's no need to upgrade electrical. This is when the optimal vs necessary comes into play.

I beg to differ, this is when you are approaching the battery resting voltage, usually @12.3 - 12.8v...IMO, the higher the better, under load, your charging system should be operating between 13.5 to 14.4v...and 13 is pushing it. It may take larger wiring, additional battery, a different type of battery, a larger alternator..heck maybe even multiple alternators and multiple batteries. If you are dropping below 13, I would highly recommend looking into upgrades..

 

[Flex68 10+ year member]

So regardless of my power output, 200w or 2000w i should upgrade my alternator due to super cooling and lossless conductivity? Exactly the answer i was looking for thanks

Apparently, this is Jaguar's little brother, lmao

Alright, one more thing though, just beause a 60 amp alternator can only put out 840 watts of power that doesn't mean the amp is constantly consuming its max rms, therefore the alternator constantly charges the battery while the amp is not running at max power, building up enough power in the battery/batteries for when the amp does need it?

Your initial claim was that he was getting 2500W out of that baby alt, right? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

Your premise is totally wrong, though, since both the battery and the amp are viewed as loads by the alt, and anything over the theoretical 840W (nothing is 100% efficient) will pull from the batt. No way that a 60A alt can provide the required amount for either your 2500W or your 1500W system...not for any amount of time, at least.

Maybe a few minutes if you have great battery power , in reserve

Now im not saying it can support an endless amount of power, certainly not 5k watt rms but definately more than the calculated 840 watt output of the 60 amp alt

Nope.

 

[MECHMAN 10+ year member]

Now im not saying it can support an endless amount of power, certainly not 5k watt rms but definately more than the calculated 840 watt output of the 60 amp alt

A 60 amp alternator really is only capable of sustaining 840 watts, period. Also, the vehicle itself is going to require as a bare minimum, 25 amps to run ignition, fuel pump, etc... This means that you actually only have about 35 amps available to power the system. If it wern't for the battery(s), the amp would shut off imeadiately.

I would tell you to test the theory by removing the battery from the equation, but an alternator physically will not function without being connected to some kind of battery.

I guess the easiest experiment would be to have your friend with the 2500 watt system and 60 amp alternator play his system at full volume for more than 5 minutes, with a digital multimeter connected to the battery terminals. The longer it plays, the lower the voltage will drop. If he plays it long enough, (depending on if the amp has low voltage protections) eventually the battery voltgage will fall down far enough that the engine shuts off. (about 9 volts or so, depending on the vehicle)

a 60 amp alternator on a 2500wrms is not realistic for listening to the system for any reasonable amount of time.

 

[cyn 10+ year member]

2500 on 60 amp alt... hmm I have a 140 amp alt with an aq 1200.. my voltage drops to around 12.6 some times to 12.3 depending on how high up the volume knob is..

I don't like my voltage this low, Alternator upgrade will be in my future. Battery Upgrades will also be in my future. but as of now 1200watts on stock 140 and yellow top with VOLUME CONTROL is easy to do. but like was said, put a DMM on that battery and play it at 75% for 5mins straight I would put money that the battery drops well below 12v within the first Minute. some amps are fine at 12v if you have the pockets to pay to have them fixed.. I would bet his system will not last longer than a year at that rate. Subs and Amps

 

[Jerhemy 10+ year member]

lol, obviously math is harder for some than others.

Some great info shared in here , OP, read and comprehend it and your question should have easily been answered.

 

[Villeza1 10+ year member]

I beg to differ, this is when you are approaching the battery resting voltage, usually @12.3 - 12.8v...IMO, the higher the better, under load, your charging system should be operating between 13.5 to 14.4v...and 13 is pushing it. It may take larger wiring, additional battery, a different type of battery, a larger alternator..heck maybe even multiple alternators and multiple batteries. If you are dropping below 13, I would highly recommend looking into upgrades..

With my experience, I've never had issues dropping at battery's natural resting voltage. It's when I would drop below is when I ran into problems (on a daily basis). I agree, less voltage drop is better but like I said, this is when optimal vs necessary comes into play. A charging system is not in any danger dropping at or above a battery's natural resting voltage so it is not necessary to upgrade. It is optimal to upgrade to obtain more power b/c we all know the more power you feed your amplifier the more output power you get from it.

 

[quackhead 10+ year member]

With my experience, I've never had issues dropping at battery's natural resting voltage. It's when I would drop below is when I ran into problems (on a daily basis). I agree, less voltage drop is better but like I said, this is when optimal vs necessary comes into play. A charging system is not in any danger dropping at or above a battery's natural resting voltage so it is not necessary to upgrade. It is optimal to upgrade to obtain more power b/c we all know the more power you feed your amplifier the more output power you get from it.

right..and when you set your amp gain with no load present, as most suggest, to produce x amount of power, then when the load is presented and the amp cannot achieve the output the gain was set for, if the electrical is not up to par. The result is clipping, which causes further power consumption through added heat, which escalates the problem very quickly and can cause driver failure and possibly amp failure...just because you read where the amp will make 50 volts at 1 ohm on 14.4v and set your gain accordingly...the farther away from the 14.4v power reference you used to set the gain, the worse the problem becomes. I am speaking in very generalized terms taking into consideration the popular synthesized music with extended constant bass signature, such as dubstep

and this leads to the reason why i try to at least mention that someone set their gains by ear, or learn the change in pitch that accompanies clipping to at least know when to turn the dang thing down.

 

[Villeza1 10+ year member]

right..and when you set your amp gain with no load present, as most suggest, to produce x amount of power, then when the load is presented and the amp cannot achieve the output the gain was set for, if the electrical is not up to par. The result is clipping, which causes further power consumption through added heat, which escalates the problem very quickly and can cause driver failure and possibly amp failure...just because you read where the amp will make 50 volts at 1 ohm on 14.4v and set your gain accordingly...the farther away from the 14.4v power you used to set the gain, the worse the problem becomes. I am speaking in very generalized terms taking into consideration the popular synthesized music with extended constant bass signature, such as dubstep

I agree, when a newb has tuned their CA equipment but to a basshead like me (us) we know better than that.

 

[Sub Bass Woofrz 10+ year member]

lol, obviously math is harder for some than others.
Some great info shared in here , OP, read and comprehend it and your question should have easily been answered.

Im not arguing with what has been posted im just interested in multiple opinions, i understand what has been stated and am thankful for their information and opinions

 

[cyn 10+ year member]

Most of the statements are not Opinions but FACT... there is a big difference here

 

[Sub Bass Woofrz 10+ year member]

Apparently, this is Jaguar's little brother, lmao


Your initial claim was that he was getting 2500W out of that baby alt, right? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

Your premise is totally wrong, though, since both the battery and the amp are viewed as loads by the alt, and anything over the theoretical 840W (nothing is 100% efficient) will pull from the batt. No way that a 60A alt can provide the required amount for either your 2500W or your 1500W system...not for any amount of time, at least.

Maybe a few minutes if you have great battery power , in reserve

Nope.

Hes this guy that works at the local audio shop, ill have to ask him, maybe he had charged the batteries with an external source prior to the demo idk, but he had a really nice build so i didnt question him much

 

[Sub Bass Woofrz 10+ year member]

Thanks sorry ^^

 

[quackhead 10+ year member]

Hes this guy that works at the local audio shop, ill have to ask him, maybe he had charged the batteries with an external source prior to the demo idk, but he had a really nice build so i didnt question him much

Ah..now we see the picture..you got a little demo while shopping for some bass, but had questions about putting a big amp on your electrical and the guy says, "aw man, not a problem, look what I can do"...and commences to show out a minute or two and then put his arm over your shoulder and walk you back to the amp rack in the store....

Am I even warm?

 

[Sub Bass Woofrz 10+ year member]

Ah..now we see the picture..you got a little demo while shopping for some bass, but had questions about putting a big amp on your electrical and the guy says, "aw man, not a problem, look what I can do"...and commences to show out a minute or two and then put his arm over your shoulder and walk you back to the amp rack in the store....

Am I even warm?

Naw he seemed like a nice guy, he wasnt the owner and it wasnt a big chain shop, he was just showing me his system cuz i asked haha, just raised some questions for me when i heard he had a 60 amp alt and he didnt seem to think that was a problem.