oscilloscope overkill?

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

Good discussion.

I understand what y'all are arguing.

On one hand, clipping isn't useful to the average person fur various reasons.

On the other hand we are trying to save equipment bt.

That's the point, to save equipment.

Now, when you say, "a shop tunes by ear because the scope is overkill for the average person".... it would be true, but shops don't even know what a scope is to begin with. So that's not the reason, "because it isn't applicable to the average system", they don't use one because thet don't know what it is. Which strengthens the point that "shops don't know *****" And they don't.

And they don't know sht. I asked Kar Tunes to scope mine, they said what's that.

I asked Jimmy Car Stereo "what's the crossover point on those passives", the only Memphis tweeter he sold. He didn't know. And when i mentioned 3.5khz is normal in passives, he said "ono, that's to low"

That's just a couple examples.

I'd be scared to let a shop install, say, 4000 watt system. Let's clip some subs and amps at that power.

Overall, the point is. Customers pull out the parking lot and burn up equipment.

Shops need to use a scope or dmm and let the person know when they cross the line.

Shop tuning sound like ***** anyway.

Tune by ear? I'm tired of hearing my amp gets hot and turns off...

 

[Jepalan]

T3mpest - thanks for elaborating your points. I can't really disagree with anything in your response - as we expound on nuance, I think the arguments converge and I am far more on the same page with you than not. I shouldn't try to speak for "the norm" in car audio as do not have a reference. I am not in the business myself, just a serious hobbyist.

I totally agree - crest factor, dynamic range of target music type, etc. as mentioned, are all important. And admittedly, I use multiple 0dB reference tones, pink noise, and an RTA as well - not *just* a scope. I also have far more average power in my system than I need for any listening situation (loud rough roads would be my worst case). I do not compete, do not care about SPL, and my approach to SQ is not text-book, it is meant to satisfy me and my ears only.

I often forget how "complicated" I choose to make my own tuning because I am totally obsessed with the hobby - and because I have the experience and education to understand the factors that come into play. I simply prefer to use test instruments to establish a known "baseline", against which I can confidently use my ears for the final tweak(s). I have a degree in electronic engineering and have been designing circuits for 25 years, so using an o-scope is second nature to me - admittedly, this is far from the average car audio DIYer, and many shops can do competent installs without a scope.

My complete approach includes many things - even manipulation of some of my source files - especially the few classical tunes I have in rotation. I keep an archive of lossless rips of my library and create "special" versions of "trouble" tunes for my car library only - including light dynamic range compression, correction of improperly de-emphasiszed rips, minor EQ tweaks on some bright/harsh recordings and/or bass boost on some older rock recordings.

If one has a fairly simple system with adequate power, then the simple process of using test tones at 3/4 HU volume to set a zero (or slight)-clipping point at amp output, should be a decent baseline and leave enough headroom for *most* installs. IMO

 

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

T3mpest - thanks for elaborating your points. I can't really disagree with anything in your response - as we expound on nuance, I think the arguments converge and I am far more on the same page with you than not. I shouldn't try to speak for "the norm" in car audio as do not have a reference. I am not in the business myself, just a serious hobbyist.
I totally agree - crest factor, dynamic range of target music type, etc. as mentioned, are all important. And admittedly, I use multiple 0dB reference tones, pink noise, and an RTA as well - not *just* a scope. I also have far more average power in my system than I need for any listening situation (loud rough roads would be my worst case). I do not compete, do not care about SPL, and my approach to SQ is not text-book, it is meant to satisfy me and my ears only.

I often forget how "complicated" I choose to make my own tuning because I am totally obsessed with the hobby - and because I have the experience and education to understand the factors that come into play. I simply prefer to use test instruments to establish a known "baseline", against which I can confidently use my ears for the final tweak(s). I have a degree in electronic engineering and have been designing circuits for 25 years, so using an o-scope is second nature to me - admittedly, this is far from the average car audio DIYer, and many shops can do competent installs without a scope.

My complete approach includes many things - even manipulation of some of my source files - especially the few classical tunes I have in rotation. I keep an archive of lossless rips of my library and create "special" versions of "trouble" tunes for my car library only - including light dynamic range compression, correction of improperly de-emphasiszed rips, minor EQ tweaks on some bright/harsh recordings and/or bass boost on some older rock recordings.

If one has a fairly simple system with adequate power, then the simple process of using test tones at 3/4 HU volume to set a zero-clipping point at amp output, should be a decent baseline and leave enough headroom for *most* installs. IMO

Well said. That's a rap

 

[calebkhill 10+ year member]

T3mpest - thanks for elaborating your points. I can't really disagree with anything in your response - as we expound on nuance, I think the arguments converge and I am far more on the same page with you than not. I shouldn't try to speak for "the norm" in car audio as do not have a reference. I am not in the business myself, just a serious hobbyist.
I totally agree - crest factor, dynamic range of target music type, etc. as mentioned, are all important. And admittedly, I use multiple 0dB reference tones, pink noise, and an RTA as well - not *just* a scope. I also have far more average power in my system than I need for any listening situation (loud rough roads would be my worst case). I do not compete, do not care about SPL, and my approach to SQ is not text-book, it is meant to satisfy me and my ears only.

I often forget how "complicated" I choose to make my own tuning because I am totally obsessed with the hobby - and because I have the experience and education to understand the factors that come into play. I simply prefer to use test instruments to establish a known "baseline", against which I can confidently use my ears for the final tweak(s). I have a degree in electronic engineering and have been designing circuits for 25 years, so using an o-scope is second nature to me - admittedly, this is far from the average car audio DIYer, and many shops can do competent installs without a scope.

My complete approach includes many things - even manipulation of some of my source files - especially the few classical tunes I have in rotation. I keep an archive of lossless rips of my library and create "special" versions of "trouble" tunes for my car library only - including light dynamic range compression, correction of improperly de-emphasiszed rips, minor EQ tweaks on some bright/harsh recordings and/or bass boost on some older rock recordings.

If one has a fairly simple system with adequate power, then the simple process of using test tones at 3/4 HU volume to set a zero-clipping point at amp output, should be a decent baseline and leave enough headroom for *most* installs. IMO

Well said, that a rap

 

[argenis69 10+ year member]

In most part, all of you make a point, I believe that everyone has his/her preference on what to do and use, but since I started these forums stuff, I've started to notice that there's few people that know what there talking about and that if you follow everyone's opinion, you'll end up going crazy and get rid of everything, lol.

 

[DRS0105]

Why is this even a question? You pay hundreds for your subs, hundreds for your amps, spend your time installing all this equipment or even pay a shop to do it, so what does it hurt to spend

 

[anger 10+ year member]

anger, where in Southern California are you located? Maybe I can direct you to a reputable shop for an installer you can trust.

I'd appreciate that...I'm in Ventura County.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

I'd appreciate that...I'm in Ventura County.

Welcome to Audio Experts!

This shop made the Mobile Electronics magazine list of Top 100 car audio retailers for 2008.

 

[AL210]

First off using a scope is not overkill but is impractical for the average person.

The average person has little to no knowledge of electronics and their workings and should be very careful when using this equipment.

I suggest for those that are not sure about this equipment or use of it to purchase an amp such as "AQ" that has a built in clip indicator to simplify setup.