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<blockquote data-quote="helotaxi" data-source="post: 2653459" data-attributes="member: 550915"><p>DO you undertstand the difference between "why" and "that?" Honestly some scientist/engineer type can knock himself out with the why. Those who actually do this stuf are concerned with the that. Don't really care why it happens at this point but know that it does. Theory vs. reality.</p><p>Big difference between well studied and well understood. Priciple without application is just writing on paper. How it is percieved by the person in question is all that matters. You previously mentioned learned response to spatial cues. If all persons concerned have the same learned response and you fail to account for that, where does that leave you? The response being learned rather than innate, makes it no less valid a response.</p><p>Have you read the thread at all? You've stated over and again the theoretical reasons and HH has stated over and again that he has experienced a different outcome to what the theory would suggest. If you want to insist that his experience is theory (he never tried to suppose as to the reason why, only stated that) then, whatever, you are in need of a vacation or something to bring you back to what is reality.You mean other than trial and error, which he stated more than once? Unlikely is quite different from impossible. Reality is filled with unlikely events. You should get out more. Also you should know that azimuth involves 360 degrees of reference. If midbass contains azimuth cues, then mounting drivers producing those frequencies behind you will provide cuing to their location as coming from behind you. Stage height is a different story.</p><p>The context of the discussion is car audio and building the best sounding car possible, I added nothing. You are trying to tell him that he's doing just that in the wrong manner.Huh? I have no idea what you were trying to say there. My take away from that is that if you spend more money to account for your lack of skill level you can build a car system on par with the best? </p><p>Ever wonder where the notion came from? Maybe cause a lot of people tried it with less than desirable results and based on that experience rejected it as a viable practice?</p><p>Again azimuth is 360 degrees. You can't have left and right without front and back. I never criticized based on education. I criticzed based on application of education and general attitude. A scientist is educated but open minded. A know-it-all engineer is educated an closed minded. They send out the vibe that there is only one answer and it is found in a book. Results that contradict their narrow view are either ignored or explained away as error. Which is worse: a very experienced person with little formal education who knows he doesn't know or a very educated person with very little real experience who thinks he knows it all? See where I'm going? If you had an open mind and cared about something other than trying to prove your educational superiority you would have used this thread to try to actually explain why HH is getting the results that he is rather than simply telling him that he isn't getting those results. Instead you insisted on sticking doggedly to the premise that you're right based on your education and what you read that someone else has studied and he's wrong and isn't really experiencing what he says he is.</p><p>Now let's talk theory. Here's mine. Based on what you have stated on the non localization of midbass frequencies, this is what would have to happen for a rear-mounted midbass to have no effect on the front to rear placement of the soundstage. First we have to assume that we can pinpoint the exact transistional frequency where localization cuing begins to occur or at least know for sure where it doesn't. Second, we would need a perfect filter with an infinite slope set somewhere below the localizable freq. Third, we would need a perfect loud speaker that will not introduce any harmonic distortion to the signal at the desired listening level. Fourth we would have to totally isolate the driver from all adjacent body panels to prevent the possibility of panel resonance introducing any harmonics into the sound. My basic theory is that harmonic distortion produced by the speaker itself is well within the easily localizable range and the distortion not the signal is the problem with rear mounted midbasses (and subs for that matter). How's that fly with your theories?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="helotaxi, post: 2653459, member: 550915"] DO you undertstand the difference between "why" and "that?" Honestly some scientist/engineer type can knock himself out with the why. Those who actually do this stuf are concerned with the that. Don't really care why it happens at this point but know that it does. Theory vs. reality. Big difference between well studied and well understood. Priciple without application is just writing on paper. How it is percieved by the person in question is all that matters. You previously mentioned learned response to spatial cues. If all persons concerned have the same learned response and you fail to account for that, where does that leave you? The response being learned rather than innate, makes it no less valid a response. Have you read the thread at all? You've stated over and again the theoretical reasons and HH has stated over and again that he has experienced a different outcome to what the theory would suggest. If you want to insist that his experience is theory (he never tried to suppose as to the reason why, only stated that) then, whatever, you are in need of a vacation or something to bring you back to what is reality.You mean other than trial and error, which he stated more than once? Unlikely is quite different from impossible. Reality is filled with unlikely events. You should get out more. Also you should know that azimuth involves 360 degrees of reference. If midbass contains azimuth cues, then mounting drivers producing those frequencies behind you will provide cuing to their location as coming from behind you. Stage height is a different story. The context of the discussion is car audio and building the best sounding car possible, I added nothing. You are trying to tell him that he's doing just that in the wrong manner.Huh? I have no idea what you were trying to say there. My take away from that is that if you spend more money to account for your lack of skill level you can build a car system on par with the best? Ever wonder where the notion came from? Maybe cause a lot of people tried it with less than desirable results and based on that experience rejected it as a viable practice? Again azimuth is 360 degrees. You can't have left and right without front and back. I never criticized based on education. I criticzed based on application of education and general attitude. A scientist is educated but open minded. A know-it-all engineer is educated an closed minded. They send out the vibe that there is only one answer and it is found in a book. Results that contradict their narrow view are either ignored or explained away as error. Which is worse: a very experienced person with little formal education who knows he doesn't know or a very educated person with very little real experience who thinks he knows it all? See where I'm going? If you had an open mind and cared about something other than trying to prove your educational superiority you would have used this thread to try to actually explain why HH is getting the results that he is rather than simply telling him that he isn't getting those results. Instead you insisted on sticking doggedly to the premise that you're right based on your education and what you read that someone else has studied and he's wrong and isn't really experiencing what he says he is. Now let's talk theory. Here's mine. Based on what you have stated on the non localization of midbass frequencies, this is what would have to happen for a rear-mounted midbass to have no effect on the front to rear placement of the soundstage. First we have to assume that we can pinpoint the exact transistional frequency where localization cuing begins to occur or at least know for sure where it doesn't. Second, we would need a perfect filter with an infinite slope set somewhere below the localizable freq. Third, we would need a perfect loud speaker that will not introduce any harmonic distortion to the signal at the desired listening level. Fourth we would have to totally isolate the driver from all adjacent body panels to prevent the possibility of panel resonance introducing any harmonics into the sound. My basic theory is that harmonic distortion produced by the speaker itself is well within the easily localizable range and the distortion not the signal is the problem with rear mounted midbasses (and subs for that matter). How's that fly with your theories? [/QUOTE]
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