Define "good" imaging

[maylar 10+ year member]

I see a lot of reference to imaging on the forums, and I'm curious as to what is considered ideal. What do SQ systems designers shoot for? How do you judge what's good and not-so-good with respect to imaging?

I'm not looking for the standard "whatever sounds good to you..." kinda response, I'm curious to know what competition systems try to achieve. Is it something that's readily obvious listening to a system, or is it very subjective?

Click to read more...

 

[Brock 5,000+ posts]

Well, despite what you said, it pretty much is what sounds good to you. I havent been to any comps (yet) but from what I know the main objective in a SQ system is to acheive the 'image' of a live performance. You want to make sure that your speakers dont sound like they are coming from the floor board, or the back of the car. When listening to music you want to be able to somewhat determine where each instrument or sound would be coming from if it was to be placed on a stage in front of you. There is a lot more to it, but hopefully that makes a little sense to you.

 

[Mark_ab 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by maylar I see a lot of reference to imaging on the forums, and I'm curious as to what is considered ideal. What do SQ systems designers shoot for? How do you judge what's good and not-so-good with respect to imaging?

 

I'm not looking for the standard "whatever sounds good to you..." kinda response, I'm curious to know what competition systems try to achieve. Is it something that's readily obvious listening to a system, or is it very subjective?

It's a very subjective term, and IMO not obvious unless you have a vehicle to compare to that has "good imaging" and stage etc. In most of the systems I've tinkered with, I spend the majority of the time in there with my eyes closed, trying to visualize stage height, width, and imaging. Classical is usually best for this, as far as differentiation of instruments, and their spatial characteristics.

 

[awalbert88 10+ year member]

As I understand it, imaging and staging are the ability of a speaker(s) to make the sound "seem" to be coming from a location appropriate to a stage. Ex. if you're listening to classical, it should seem as though there is a full orchestra/symphony/whatever in front of you -- not right in your face, but a comfortable distance away, as though you're in the audience. This is highly subjective, though, because for some people, no matter how good the setup is, their brain will simply defeat their ears by saying, "No, you moron, the speaker is two feet away from you". With a live recording, a really, really good SQ setup, and finely tuned ears, imagining/staging will let you pinpoint where the singers are on stage, where each instrument is, etc. But really, for most folks, this is not easy to do. "Perfect" imaging is possible in theory, but it all depends on how well trained your ears are.

Tell you what, go to your local high-end home audio shop and ask to demo some Paradigm Studio 100 speakers with a CD you have (not burned with MP3s -- a real CD is best). Listen for 25-30 minutes, very closely. You'll start to notice a lot of things you probably didn't notice before. Now go listen to that same CD in your car. Unless you've got a very well built system, it's going to sound significantly less transparent than the Paradigms. But then, most of us don't spend $2000 on a pair of car speakers, either (which is what those Studio 100's cost).

I know some people will flame me for using home stereo speakers in comparison here, but I think it's a valid point.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by maylar I see a lot of reference to imaging on the forums, and I'm curious as to what is considered ideal. What do SQ systems designers shoot for? How do you judge what's good and not-so-good with respect to imaging?

 

I'm not looking for the standard "whatever sounds good to you..." kinda response, I'm curious to know what competition systems try to achieve. Is it something that's readily obvious listening to a system, or is it very subjective?

You can't 'define' imaging honestly - you have to experience it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif This is one part of the sound quality review that really isn't all too subjective, as a CD is recorded and laid out in a certain way, and the system should properly reproduce the image.

Best solution, and the one I always do - is to audition the CD on my home system first (which is more properly setup than any car I'll ever own, or sit in) understand the CD and it's design, then go try and impliment it in-car...

 

[maylar 10+ year member]

OK, thanks for the replies. I think I have an understanding now of the concept.

So then the next question is, how do you achieve good imaging in a car? What are the basic do's and don'ts that every good installer needs to be aware of if you have any hope of achieving good imaging? Any "golden rules" that need to be adhered to?

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by maylar OK, thanks for the replies. I think I have an understanding now of the concept.

 

So then the next question is, how do you achieve good imaging in a car? What are the basic do's and don'ts that every good installer needs to be aware of if you have any hope of achieving good imaging? Any "golden rules" that need to be adhered to?

See, there really isn't any golden rules, and if you have some, someone out there will blow it apart by being innovative...

Typical things that help with staging/imaging is keeping pathlengths equal (kick panels), time alignment to some extent, playing with the phasing of the midbass and subwoofer, sometimes adding a high passed tweeter in the dash area pulls staging up, and several that are kind of my personal secrets, so I don't want to give them all away.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

To be honest Maylar, there is no golden rule, there is no perfect application, the real winners are the ones out there trying the exteme things, just to see what happens - no matter how stupid it seems at first.

Stretch the envelope.

 

[mykeys 10+ year member]

Very good points both awalbert and Josh.. One of the more common things I have seen and not done is to use a set of comps in the kicks and a seperate set of tweets higher on the dash or on the A-piller set 180 out of phase for hight and to keep the sound level up.

Most competitors will also try to put at the very least some kind of midbass driver up front and the larger sub in the back to keep your attention off of it(used more for the feel bass than audible). figuring out where to aim your speakers is another major issue and has a lot to do with which sanctioning body is putting on the show. IASCA ( I think ) has the judges in the drivers seat only so positioning the speakers from there will get you the better score.. another might use two judges on for either seat where pointing the speaker to the center of the car would be better.

Mike

 

[donlovescaraudi 10+ year member]

all cds dont sound the same(even well recorded ones)so is there a way you set up your sysetm for rap as opposed to rock or clasical,i know certain speakers work well with certain types of music.

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

best answer to your ? is have a system that centers dead on eye level and sounds wider/deeper than a car or the car the system is in. aka your dash top is a sound stage and your hood on out is the actual stage. you should be able to close your eyes and imagin you are at a live show sitting dead center 6 rows back

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

some of tyhe best SQ cars I have been in are set up so tight where it sounds great everywhere in the car but once you sit down in the drivers seat it is just like putting on a set of head phones, the veritable "sweet spot"