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<blockquote data-quote="T3mpest" data-source="post: 8157207" data-attributes="member: 560148">I agree on a few things here, sort of.1. If you have alot of inputs before your amp an O-scop can make it easier to set the gains for those.&nbsp; However, it&#039;s hardly critical as while doing it by ear may not totally maximize S/N ratio, you can usually get it to be quiet enough to not hear the noise.&nbsp; That&#039;s really all you need, any quieter is kinda excess for obvious reasons.2.Shops should use DMM&#039;s for 1 reason only, minimize warrantee issues, that&#039;s it!&nbsp; That&#039;s more or less where this absurd idea came from in the first place.Here is my contention, realize when people here about gain setting with an O-scope, they are almost NEVER talking about preamps/input sides.&nbsp; Most people just have a HU going to an amp going to speakers.&nbsp; That&#039;s it, we both know where the O-scope is going, the amps outputs!&nbsp; You can test where you HU clips for the sake of knowing, but beyond that the O-scope has no job in an install like that.People use O scopes to eliminate clipping, that&#039;s the idea, as somehow ANY clipping has become the devil on here.&nbsp; No clipping whatsoever..&nbsp; Now what if we are listening to classical music?&nbsp; Average crest factor in classical is on the order of 20db. (crest factor is the difference between average volume of a track and it&#039;s maximum, for those unaware)&nbsp; If your refusing to clip and have a 100 watt amp on your speakers, they will see right around 1 watt of power for most of the song.. See the problem yet?&nbsp; If you system isn&#039;t going to clip, then you better have amps with AT LEAST 2x the power the speaker claims to need.&nbsp; That&#039;s fairly expensive and again, not what most people are doing.&nbsp; Granted most people aren&#039;t listening to classical either, but there is plenty of well recorded music that has well over 10db of crest factor.&nbsp; Anyone who has music from the early 90&#039;s probably has some, early days of the CD were very good in this respect.Let&#039;s look at how most people would setup gains with an O scope on the output side.&nbsp; They&#039;d find the clipping point of each amp and then HOPEFULLY, turn down anything that is now too loud.&nbsp; Granted, that step seems like it&#039;s often forgotten.&nbsp; However, even doing this, you can see we&#039;ve further decreased overall listening levels for the sake of fidelity.&nbsp; Not always a bad thing, but when you started with a bad premise to begin with..&nbsp; Road noise, low amp power and you refuse to clip.&nbsp; (again most people here are matching RMS on speakers to amps fairly closely, that&#039;s not cutting it on good music without clipping)Even modern music has between 6-14db of crest factor.&nbsp; If your getting near 6db, then yeah, you probably don&#039;t need to clip very much ie avenged sevenfold, but 14db can usually stand a fair bit of clipping and will require it to get your max output that will still sound the same without damaging equipment.&nbsp; It all comes back to what you listen to.&nbsp; Now to throw another wrench into it, some people listen to music in cars from different sources.&nbsp; Alot of those can be several DB&#039;s quieter than others too.&nbsp; Again, another reason to give yourself some range on the output side.&nbsp; There was a thread on here just a week or two ago with someone who said things sound great with their CD&#039;s, but there phone&#039;s MP3&#039;s are just too quiet.. Everyone&#039;s response, spend more money!&nbsp; Boost your signal, stop using the phone, etc, etc.&nbsp; NOBODY brought up turning the gains up some and the HU down on your CD&#039;s, not a single person for 2 freaking pages.&nbsp; That&#039;s how brainwashed some people are to setting gains with a machine.Lastly, you mentioned setting things to the &quot;desired&quot; clipping point.&nbsp; I can&#039;t imagine doing that with a scope.&nbsp; Setting your output to clip with a scope is ridiculous.&nbsp; How would you even know when to stop?&nbsp; At that point, using your ears as a judge seems far more sensible.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="T3mpest, post: 8157207, member: 560148"] I agree on a few things here, sort of. 1. If you have alot of inputs before your amp an O-scop can make it easier to set the gains for those. However, it's hardly critical as while doing it by ear may not totally maximize S/N ratio, you can usually get it to be quiet enough to not hear the noise. That's really all you need, any quieter is kinda excess for obvious reasons. 2.Shops should use DMM's for 1 reason only, minimize warrantee issues, that's it! That's more or less where this absurd idea came from in the first place. Here is my contention, realize when people here about gain setting with an O-scope, they are almost NEVER talking about preamps/input sides. Most people just have a HU going to an amp going to speakers. That's it, we both know where the O-scope is going, the amps outputs! You can test where you HU clips for the sake of knowing, but beyond that the O-scope has no job in an install like that. People use O scopes to eliminate clipping, that's the idea, as somehow ANY clipping has become the devil on here. No clipping whatsoever.. Now what if we are listening to classical music? Average crest factor in classical is on the order of 20db. (crest factor is the difference between average volume of a track and it's maximum, for those unaware) If your refusing to clip and have a 100 watt amp on your speakers, they will see right around 1 watt of power for most of the song.. See the problem yet? If you system isn't going to clip, then you better have amps with AT LEAST 2x the power the speaker claims to need. That's fairly expensive and again, not what most people are doing. Granted most people aren't listening to classical either, but there is plenty of well recorded music that has well over 10db of crest factor. Anyone who has music from the early 90's probably has some, early days of the CD were very good in this respect. Let's look at how most people would setup gains with an O scope on the output side. They'd find the clipping point of each amp and then HOPEFULLY, turn down anything that is now too loud. Granted, that step seems like it's often forgotten. However, even doing this, you can see we've further decreased overall listening levels for the sake of fidelity. Not always a bad thing, but when you started with a bad premise to begin with.. Road noise, low amp power and you refuse to clip. (again most people here are matching RMS on speakers to amps fairly closely, that's not cutting it on good music without clipping) Even modern music has between 6-14db of crest factor. If your getting near 6db, then yeah, you probably don't need to clip very much ie avenged sevenfold, but 14db can usually stand a fair bit of clipping and will require it to get your max output that will still sound the same without damaging equipment. It all comes back to what you listen to. Now to throw another wrench into it, some people listen to music in cars from different sources. Alot of those can be several DB's quieter than others too. Again, another reason to give yourself some range on the output side. There was a thread on here just a week or two ago with someone who said things sound great with their CD's, but there phone's MP3's are just too quiet.. Everyone's response, spend more money! Boost your signal, stop using the phone, etc, etc. NOBODY brought up turning the gains up some and the HU down on your CD's, not a single person for 2 freaking pages. That's how brainwashed some people are to setting gains with a machine. Lastly, you mentioned setting things to the "desired" clipping point. I can't imagine doing that with a scope. Setting your output to clip with a scope is ridiculous. How would you even know when to stop? At that point, using your ears as a judge seems far more sensible. [/QUOTE]

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