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Need opinion on good 3000+ amp
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<blockquote data-quote="mat3833" data-source="post: 8800800" data-attributes="member: 587645"><p>I think the issue here is in how everyone thinks damping factor works or is calculated and/or how it's relevant. Come with me on a journey of fucked up, redneck, Basshead, science!</p><p></p><p>CRAZY SIMPLE EXAMPLE BELOW, I'VE GOT MY FIRE SUIT ON:</p><p></p><p>OK, damping factor can most easily be compared to a Macpherson strut. It is a spring of a specific weight, with a matched damper to control the movement of that spring under compression and extension. The subwoofer is compressing and extending the strut, and in turn the strut is simply taking that energy and dissipating it as heat.</p><p></p><p>The issue with damping factor is this: a damping factor of 10 is not 10x "stiffer" than a damping factor of 1. I'm not going to get into specific ratios, but if you change the spring rate/damping rate on your strut by just 10 percent you will feel a difference. You can increase the damping factor by a factor of 1,000 percent and electrically(or electromechanically) there will be very little difference.</p><p></p><p>Now, how do you measure damping factor from an electrical standpoint? Well, as most of us know Impedance is affected by frequency when we are talking about speakers. An amplifiers output Impedance is ALSO affected by frequency. So damping factor should be a graph, just like high-end drivers provide an Impedance graph.</p><p></p><p>Here's where things get fun; what happens when you try to calculate this formula(no, it's the real formula, just work with me here):</p><p></p><p>DF= 1/2({A-imp/S-imp}/4)</p><p></p><p>DF is the amplifiers damping factor.</p><p>A-imp is the amplifiers output Impedance</p><p>S-imp is the speakers Impedance.</p><p></p><p>What values do we use for A and S-imp? Nominal values? The value of each at a specific frequency? Do we substitute a speaker for a nominal resistive load?</p><p></p><p>There are dozens of possible variables you can alter to change your result and at least one of those variables(resistive load vs speaker load) would completely invalidate your test results. Whatever company claiming damping factor would need to specify how exactly they calculate their damping factor for it to have any relevance.</p><p></p><p>Last example I promise....</p><p></p><p>If we go back to our strut example and just imagine it as one single unit instead of spring rate and damping rate we can rock this *****.</p><p></p><p>Let's imagine that the strut is attached to a device that produces a sine wave in linear form. Obviously a stiffer strut would be beneficial. When you push on the strut to move the speaker you don't want it to compress, and when you pull back you don't want it to extend. But here is the caveat: the strut isn't pushing or pulling the speaker. The strut isn't actually touching the speaker at all. The strut is pushing on a button that turns a freaking Lazer beam on or off that makes the speaker move.</p><p></p><p>This is a good video that relates to the practical example I'm trying to make:</p><p><a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DoI_X2cMHNe0&ved=2ahUKEwjTivzqzpX5AhVpRDABHf8yD24QwqsBegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw0BPSKgE2c3jijSM8rgTQy7" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oI_X2cMHNe0&ved=2ahUKEwjTivzqzpX5AhVpRDABHf8yD24QwqsBegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw0BPSKgE2c3jijSM8rgTQy7</a></p><p></p><p>Electroboom also made a video responding to this one that I'll try to find and post tomorrow. He uses like 1000 meters of Cat-5 cable to perform the experiment.</p><p></p><p>The key takeaway here is thst damping factor, while "measurable and quantifiable", is meaningless in any practical sense. Yes, it will have some effect but so will a pinhole drilled in an enclosure. With sensitive enough equipment you could measure an effect, but did it really make a damn difference?</p><p></p><p>Matt</p><p></p><p>Edit: also any amp that is letting the voltage/current induced by the coil movement back into the mosfet or anything beyond the output filters has MUCH bigger design issues than anything else. Amplifiers are by their very nature driving the speaker. Even if a sub unloads in a ported enclosure, the motor/suspension is what's controlling the cone/coil not the amplifier. You can't give a mouse a toothpick and expect it to stop a semi.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mat3833, post: 8800800, member: 587645"] I think the issue here is in how everyone thinks damping factor works or is calculated and/or how it's relevant. Come with me on a journey of fucked up, redneck, Basshead, science! CRAZY SIMPLE EXAMPLE BELOW, I'VE GOT MY FIRE SUIT ON: OK, damping factor can most easily be compared to a Macpherson strut. It is a spring of a specific weight, with a matched damper to control the movement of that spring under compression and extension. The subwoofer is compressing and extending the strut, and in turn the strut is simply taking that energy and dissipating it as heat. The issue with damping factor is this: a damping factor of 10 is not 10x "stiffer" than a damping factor of 1. I'm not going to get into specific ratios, but if you change the spring rate/damping rate on your strut by just 10 percent you will feel a difference. You can increase the damping factor by a factor of 1,000 percent and electrically(or electromechanically) there will be very little difference. Now, how do you measure damping factor from an electrical standpoint? Well, as most of us know Impedance is affected by frequency when we are talking about speakers. An amplifiers output Impedance is ALSO affected by frequency. So damping factor should be a graph, just like high-end drivers provide an Impedance graph. Here's where things get fun; what happens when you try to calculate this formula(no, it's the real formula, just work with me here): DF= 1/2({A-imp/S-imp}/4) DF is the amplifiers damping factor. A-imp is the amplifiers output Impedance S-imp is the speakers Impedance. What values do we use for A and S-imp? Nominal values? The value of each at a specific frequency? Do we substitute a speaker for a nominal resistive load? There are dozens of possible variables you can alter to change your result and at least one of those variables(resistive load vs speaker load) would completely invalidate your test results. Whatever company claiming damping factor would need to specify how exactly they calculate their damping factor for it to have any relevance. Last example I promise.... If we go back to our strut example and just imagine it as one single unit instead of spring rate and damping rate we can rock this *****. Let's imagine that the strut is attached to a device that produces a sine wave in linear form. Obviously a stiffer strut would be beneficial. When you push on the strut to move the speaker you don't want it to compress, and when you pull back you don't want it to extend. But here is the caveat: the strut isn't pushing or pulling the speaker. The strut isn't actually touching the speaker at all. The strut is pushing on a button that turns a freaking Lazer beam on or off that makes the speaker move. This is a good video that relates to the practical example I'm trying to make: [URL='https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DoI_X2cMHNe0&ved=2ahUKEwjTivzqzpX5AhVpRDABHf8yD24QwqsBegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw0BPSKgE2c3jijSM8rgTQy7']https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oI_X2cMHNe0&ved=2ahUKEwjTivzqzpX5AhVpRDABHf8yD24QwqsBegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw0BPSKgE2c3jijSM8rgTQy7[/URL] Electroboom also made a video responding to this one that I'll try to find and post tomorrow. He uses like 1000 meters of Cat-5 cable to perform the experiment. The key takeaway here is thst damping factor, while "measurable and quantifiable", is meaningless in any practical sense. Yes, it will have some effect but so will a pinhole drilled in an enclosure. With sensitive enough equipment you could measure an effect, but did it really make a damn difference? Matt Edit: also any amp that is letting the voltage/current induced by the coil movement back into the mosfet or anything beyond the output filters has MUCH bigger design issues than anything else. Amplifiers are by their very nature driving the speaker. Even if a sub unloads in a ported enclosure, the motor/suspension is what's controlling the cone/coil not the amplifier. You can't give a mouse a toothpick and expect it to stop a semi. [/QUOTE]
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