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Expert Opinion sought for modular system installation
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<blockquote data-quote="Doxquzme" data-source="post: 8924391" data-attributes="member: 689267"><p>Let me premise my answer with the following info on me.</p><p></p><p>I'm a wannabe musician wrapped up in an EE's body, who plays drums, bass guitar, all manner of keys, and the cello. </p><p></p><p>My musical preferences range from the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565, Handel, (Baroque period is hands down my favorite of the masters' eras), to Gangsta's Paradise, with Steely Dan, The Doobies, Eagles, Aerosmith, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Taylor Swift, Spandau Ballet, The Go Gos, Deep Purple, and the Beatles thrown in for good measure.</p><p></p><p>On CD, SACD, or Ultra Blu-ray, I own a master copy of Nigel Kennedy, Vivaldi - The Four Seasons, Handels greatest, several from Heaven (Danish band), ALL the Beatles albums, including the 2009 remastered box series in Mono and Stereo, Led Zep box sets, all manner of rock and roll, immersive new wave and new age, and about 650 CDs (and counting) in total.</p><p></p><p>So, my perspective on how that gets reproduced is that you try for the best, full spectrum ouput so that there isn't any compromise with any genre.</p><p></p><p>Regarding the sub, if 8 is it, it's doable, and there are some really stellar units that I am familiar with, but I cannot say firsthand anything about that Orion driver, as I've not used or heard the Orion sub.</p><p></p><p>Rap and Rock are not the ultimate keepers of low-end reproduction; that would fall to orchestral music. I'm not including rebassed music (it doesn't count).</p><p></p><p>Keep in mind that a standard bass guitar is lowest at around 41 Hz, while the contrabassoon hits down to 27 Hz, and the pipe organ reaches into the lowest register, the infrabass (infrasonic) frequencies, to around 16hz.</p><p></p><p>Back to the build.</p><p></p><p>As for deadening, Second Skin is good, Resonix is hands down the best product going, and it's not debatable.</p><p></p><p>AS for a Center channel configuration, I suppose if you can save one of the tunes for use with the center, that would be fine, and Tang Ban makes several suitable wideband drivers that will handle everything from 300-20k well enough.</p><p></p><p>I just do not use them in my personal builds, as you should be able to attain the height and centralized localization of the front stage without using a center; alwasy seemd to be a way to emulate that which is truly an outstanding sounding front stage when it's accomplished with two-channel stereo.</p><p></p><p>One's the real deal, the other is, well, fake.</p><p></p><p>Onto the tweeters, again. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>The Mondorf is a stellar performer, and I'm a fan of AMTs. enjoy them in my Martin Logan XT F200s, exceptionally clean and crisp, effortlessly do the work without ear fatigue, but I can also place them in the utmost sweet-spot in my living room environment.</p><p></p><p>Therin lies the conundrum - placement.</p><p></p><p>The Mundorf is installed vertically, in pillars or in other areas, because that is the way the driver was designed, intended to work, in a home speaker, as the negative characteristics are minimized by speaker placement, not easily accomplished in a car.</p><p></p><p>Even installed horizontally (sideways), they're still a royal pain in the arse to get correct; it's just not a simple task. </p><p></p><p>The results are still going to create a significant off-axis frequency drop-off, and depending on the proximity to the window, dash, or windshield. to a lesser degree, defractions lesson, but at a cost. wide horizontal plane, lousy vertical plane. </p><p></p><p>So instead of sounding like they are turning off and on when you move your head from side to side, it happens when you are bee-bopping along and bobbing your head up and down - just not my cup of tea in the car environment, and the reason you don't see many doing it is that it's difficult to do it correctly.</p><p></p><p>Car installs are hard enough to get right, not to have to deal with those additional issues, not for me anyway. So if you go that route, up to you, but I would wager that a good set of berylilliums will show AMTs the door, they're that good up to 25k.</p><p></p><p>Good berylium tweeters have all the subtle nuances of a high-end silk, the quick attack of an alloy or ceramic (without the bit muted articulation), with zero listening fatigue often associated with the other domes mentioned, they're that good.</p><p></p><p>And that high-frequency output you don't like, I highly recommend against any kind of manual frequency attenuation/manipulation/elimination; that's a bad thing all the way around.</p><p></p><p>What you likely do not like is the ear fatigue associated with many tweeters. </p><p></p><p>This is primarily due to the tweeter's breakup starting to occur early due to design and cost limitations with regard to the dome material used. </p><p></p><p>That fatigue will still be present (to a lesser degree) with the Mundorfs as they can be brutally open and detailed, exposing any flaws in placement or other limitations of the equipment in the build. </p><p></p><p>This is where I come back time and time again to using berylium domes, they are roughly on a par with the AMTs out there, but they are exceptionally smooth, suffer breakup for above the 20k range of human hearing, cost about the same or less than a good AMT, and perform as well in accuracy and better as far as the staging is concerned.</p><p></p><p>I'm using these in the Valicar pods:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.solen.ca/en/products/bliesma-t25b6-25mm-beryllium-dome-tweeter[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Go and listen to a set of beryliums if you can, then the Mundorfs, see if you really think the AMT is the better choice. I'll likely never use another type of tweeter for my front stage again, I'm that happy with the sound, it's really something.</p><p></p><p>Back to the 8's.</p><p></p><p>Here are a couple that come to mind:</p><p></p><p>This is till my favorite shallow sub, along with one other. The DD Audio is purpose-built for small, shallow installations, and it's truly one that approaches/matches the performance of its bigger, full-depth siblings.</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://ddaudio.com/sl600-series/subwoofers/hi-def-tuned/sl608/[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Audiofrog</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.crutchfield.com/S-rYBkYGZ4age/p_898GS8ND2/Audiofrog-GS8ND2.html?XVINQ=GZ0&XVVer=1AOE&awcr=628731025649&awdv=c&awnw=g&awug=9029596&awkw=pla-946538530544&awmt=&awat=pla&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=18593334232&gclid=CjwKCAjwrNrQBhBjEiwAoR4VO1zDms9hvWZoVTsTNpP1uTL6vcgnjcJbBdzGLRTLYKs5djfVQJ4CEBoCFfMQAvD_BwE[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Helix Ci5</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/products/helix-ci5-s200fm-8-shallow-midbass-dual-single-2-ohm?srsltid=AfmBOoqPbIf8lnqDgPnnTykqRT9YrFKO8LHHFFjvkoeKcLJZmAKTOic9[/URL]</p><p></p><p>PRV</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.parts-express.com/PRV-Audio-MT8SW800-D4-Moto-Series-8-Shallow-Subwoofer-DVC-4x4-Ohm-267-8044?quantity=1[/URL]</p><p></p><p></p><p>American BASS</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://americanbassusa.com/products/titanium-8-slim-subwoofer?srsltid=AfmBOoot5DoGMsoGPQW1hVKPXUKY4MvwnGlTrLtz4USJZPy_l3E7OLmT[/URL]</p><p></p><p>As for amplification, gonna spring one on you that is pretty amazing in all aspects:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://tdscaraudio.com/products/soundigital-gan-2000-8-8ch-amplifier-in-store-only[/URL]</p><p></p><p>That amp will handle the entire front stage as well as a set of coaxials or full-range drivers for the rear.</p><p></p><p>Grab one of these little 6"x 6" x 2" marvels, run it at 4 ohms, give you a plethora of power to play with up or down, attenuate to taste or need.</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DS1KKS9C/?tag=caraudiocom-20[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Or, one of these for subwoofer duty.</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://audiointensity.com/products/crescendo-revolution-3a1-1-channel-amplifier[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Or one of these:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://audiointensity.com/products/wavtech-link5001mini-500w-monoblock-amplifier[/URL]</p><p></p><p>Or one of these:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://audiointensity.com/products/prodigy-audio-1200-watt-mono-block-amplifier-nbm1200-1[/URL]</p><p></p><p>On any of those AudioIntensity amp deals, load them into the cart, and the price on some is lower when loaded into the cart.</p><p></p><p>The sub amp will be contingent on the need and the power available at the spec'd wired load, preferably, a 4 ohms load on a higher-wattage 1-ohm-rated amp at 4 ohms works better than a lower wattage amp running at 1 ohm.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Doxquzme, post: 8924391, member: 689267"] Let me premise my answer with the following info on me. I'm a wannabe musician wrapped up in an EE's body, who plays drums, bass guitar, all manner of keys, and the cello. My musical preferences range from the Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565, Handel, (Baroque period is hands down my favorite of the masters' eras), to Gangsta's Paradise, with Steely Dan, The Doobies, Eagles, Aerosmith, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Taylor Swift, Spandau Ballet, The Go Gos, Deep Purple, and the Beatles thrown in for good measure. On CD, SACD, or Ultra Blu-ray, I own a master copy of Nigel Kennedy, Vivaldi - The Four Seasons, Handels greatest, several from Heaven (Danish band), ALL the Beatles albums, including the 2009 remastered box series in Mono and Stereo, Led Zep box sets, all manner of rock and roll, immersive new wave and new age, and about 650 CDs (and counting) in total. So, my perspective on how that gets reproduced is that you try for the best, full spectrum ouput so that there isn't any compromise with any genre. Regarding the sub, if 8 is it, it's doable, and there are some really stellar units that I am familiar with, but I cannot say firsthand anything about that Orion driver, as I've not used or heard the Orion sub. Rap and Rock are not the ultimate keepers of low-end reproduction; that would fall to orchestral music. I'm not including rebassed music (it doesn't count). Keep in mind that a standard bass guitar is lowest at around 41 Hz, while the contrabassoon hits down to 27 Hz, and the pipe organ reaches into the lowest register, the infrabass (infrasonic) frequencies, to around 16hz. Back to the build. As for deadening, Second Skin is good, Resonix is hands down the best product going, and it's not debatable. AS for a Center channel configuration, I suppose if you can save one of the tunes for use with the center, that would be fine, and Tang Ban makes several suitable wideband drivers that will handle everything from 300-20k well enough. I just do not use them in my personal builds, as you should be able to attain the height and centralized localization of the front stage without using a center; alwasy seemd to be a way to emulate that which is truly an outstanding sounding front stage when it's accomplished with two-channel stereo. One's the real deal, the other is, well, fake. Onto the tweeters, again. ;) The Mondorf is a stellar performer, and I'm a fan of AMTs. enjoy them in my Martin Logan XT F200s, exceptionally clean and crisp, effortlessly do the work without ear fatigue, but I can also place them in the utmost sweet-spot in my living room environment. Therin lies the conundrum - placement. The Mundorf is installed vertically, in pillars or in other areas, because that is the way the driver was designed, intended to work, in a home speaker, as the negative characteristics are minimized by speaker placement, not easily accomplished in a car. Even installed horizontally (sideways), they're still a royal pain in the arse to get correct; it's just not a simple task. The results are still going to create a significant off-axis frequency drop-off, and depending on the proximity to the window, dash, or windshield. to a lesser degree, defractions lesson, but at a cost. wide horizontal plane, lousy vertical plane. So instead of sounding like they are turning off and on when you move your head from side to side, it happens when you are bee-bopping along and bobbing your head up and down - just not my cup of tea in the car environment, and the reason you don't see many doing it is that it's difficult to do it correctly. Car installs are hard enough to get right, not to have to deal with those additional issues, not for me anyway. So if you go that route, up to you, but I would wager that a good set of berylilliums will show AMTs the door, they're that good up to 25k. Good berylium tweeters have all the subtle nuances of a high-end silk, the quick attack of an alloy or ceramic (without the bit muted articulation), with zero listening fatigue often associated with the other domes mentioned, they're that good. And that high-frequency output you don't like, I highly recommend against any kind of manual frequency attenuation/manipulation/elimination; that's a bad thing all the way around. What you likely do not like is the ear fatigue associated with many tweeters. This is primarily due to the tweeter's breakup starting to occur early due to design and cost limitations with regard to the dome material used. That fatigue will still be present (to a lesser degree) with the Mundorfs as they can be brutally open and detailed, exposing any flaws in placement or other limitations of the equipment in the build. This is where I come back time and time again to using berylium domes, they are roughly on a par with the AMTs out there, but they are exceptionally smooth, suffer breakup for above the 20k range of human hearing, cost about the same or less than a good AMT, and perform as well in accuracy and better as far as the staging is concerned. I'm using these in the Valicar pods: [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.solen.ca/en/products/bliesma-t25b6-25mm-beryllium-dome-tweeter[/URL] Go and listen to a set of beryliums if you can, then the Mundorfs, see if you really think the AMT is the better choice. I'll likely never use another type of tweeter for my front stage again, I'm that happy with the sound, it's really something. Back to the 8's. Here are a couple that come to mind: This is till my favorite shallow sub, along with one other. The DD Audio is purpose-built for small, shallow installations, and it's truly one that approaches/matches the performance of its bigger, full-depth siblings. [URL unfurl="true"]https://ddaudio.com/sl600-series/subwoofers/hi-def-tuned/sl608/[/URL] Audiofrog [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.crutchfield.com/S-rYBkYGZ4age/p_898GS8ND2/Audiofrog-GS8ND2.html?XVINQ=GZ0&XVVer=1AOE&awcr=628731025649&awdv=c&awnw=g&awug=9029596&awkw=pla-946538530544&awmt=&awat=pla&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=18593334232&gclid=CjwKCAjwrNrQBhBjEiwAoR4VO1zDms9hvWZoVTsTNpP1uTL6vcgnjcJbBdzGLRTLYKs5djfVQJ4CEBoCFfMQAvD_BwE[/URL] Helix Ci5 [URL unfurl="true"]https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/products/helix-ci5-s200fm-8-shallow-midbass-dual-single-2-ohm?srsltid=AfmBOoqPbIf8lnqDgPnnTykqRT9YrFKO8LHHFFjvkoeKcLJZmAKTOic9[/URL] PRV [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.parts-express.com/PRV-Audio-MT8SW800-D4-Moto-Series-8-Shallow-Subwoofer-DVC-4x4-Ohm-267-8044?quantity=1[/URL] American BASS [URL unfurl="true"]https://americanbassusa.com/products/titanium-8-slim-subwoofer?srsltid=AfmBOoot5DoGMsoGPQW1hVKPXUKY4MvwnGlTrLtz4USJZPy_l3E7OLmT[/URL] As for amplification, gonna spring one on you that is pretty amazing in all aspects: [URL unfurl="true"]https://tdscaraudio.com/products/soundigital-gan-2000-8-8ch-amplifier-in-store-only[/URL] That amp will handle the entire front stage as well as a set of coaxials or full-range drivers for the rear. Grab one of these little 6"x 6" x 2" marvels, run it at 4 ohms, give you a plethora of power to play with up or down, attenuate to taste or need. [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DS1KKS9C/?tag=caraudiocom-20[/URL] Or, one of these for subwoofer duty. [URL unfurl="true"]https://audiointensity.com/products/crescendo-revolution-3a1-1-channel-amplifier[/URL] Or one of these: [URL unfurl="true"]https://audiointensity.com/products/wavtech-link5001mini-500w-monoblock-amplifier[/URL] Or one of these: [URL unfurl="true"]https://audiointensity.com/products/prodigy-audio-1200-watt-mono-block-amplifier-nbm1200-1[/URL] On any of those AudioIntensity amp deals, load them into the cart, and the price on some is lower when loaded into the cart. The sub amp will be contingent on the need and the power available at the spec'd wired load, preferably, a 4 ohms load on a higher-wattage 1-ohm-rated amp at 4 ohms works better than a lower wattage amp running at 1 ohm. [/QUOTE]
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