Speaker and Setup Questions

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happy4ya

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I have a 2013 Grand Caravan and I'm looking to hook it up with some good sound.  I have a Pioneer NEX double DIN head unit, and I was planning on putting some new 3, 4, or 5-way 6x9's in the doors and also in the back, and some new 3.5" coaxials in the dashboard.  I was going to get a Alpine PDR-F50 (85RMS x 4) for the four 6x9's and a 45 x 2 I already have for the dash speakers.  And I already have a sealed box with 2 Rockford Fosgate Punch 10" subs with an old US Acoustics 200 x 2 to drive them.Since there are so many speakers to choose from, I went into one of the stereo shops in my area to try to listen to some different 6x9's before buying, and after telling the guy what I was looking to do, he told me instead of coaxials in the front, he would do some Alpine R-S69C.2 6x9 components in the doors and put the tweeters from that component set up in the dash where the 3.5's go, and a pair of Alpine R-S69.2 coaxials in the rear panels, and I should drop my 200 x 2 amp and use an Alpine (yes they are a big Alpine shop) PDX-V9 5 channel amp to run everything.  (100RMS x 4 and 500RMS x 1).

Part of me feels like he is just trying to push some pretty expensive equipment on me, and part of me knows that it is some good stuff so I'm looking for some input.

I have 2 questions, and the first is about the front setup.  I know it's usually not recommend to spread the components too far apart or they don't sound right but he said that he had done this plenty of times, and in my van they are not spread too far and the tweeters bouncing off the dash would blend nicely with the 6x9 woofers low in the doors and it would sound great.  Just wondering what your thoughts are on this compared to doing full range speakers in the doors and also on the dash.  I know you lose some of the highs low in the door, but I can still hear plenty with the stock setup so I'm not sure if losing that from the doors will be good or if it's going to sound unbalanced.The next question is about dropping my amp and using the 500 x 1 on the Alpine amp for my sub box.  A lot of people have told me that these newer class D amps don't sound as good as the old AB amps I have, but everything I have used in the past have been AB so I haven't heard anything with them yet.  The Alpine amp does 500RMS @ both 4 ohms and 2 ohms, so I can run my existing subs in parallel and do the 2 ohm load.  I know stereo is not 100% necessary for subs, but it’s the difference between 200 watts per speaker stereo (AB), or 500 x 1 mono - 250 per speaker (D).I'm not opposed to the guys recommended setup as the single amp would make the install MUCH easier, but the 2 sets of speakers and the 5 channel amp will cost quite a bit more than what I was planning.  Those Alpine speakers are pretty pricey, and the amp is about $600.  As much as I would love to do custom stuff, it is a work van and I have no idea how much longer it's going to last so I don't want to go too nuts.  The stock speakers are cheesy paper cone, full range factory speakers and just the extra power from the Pioneer unit along the equalizer made them sound pretty damn good . If I could recreate that but louder and with proper low end to match I'd be happy.  I’m really into clean well balanced sound.  I go from Metallica, to rap, to dance music, to classic rock, to freestyle (pretty everything except for country).

Sorry for the long post, but if anyone makes it through it, any input will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

 
I’m really into clean well balanced sound.  I go from Metallica, to rap, to dance music, to classic rock, to freestyle (pretty everything except for country).
I'll make these points a bit randomly.

  • Simple is most often better.
  • Hell No on 4-way or 5-way 6x9s. 
  • The setup you were suggested sounds like a great plan. A compromise to consider is to run 6x9 woofers up front, without tweeters, and the 3.5" coaxials in the dash. I don't know Alpine's catalog but I doubt they sell their 6x9 woofers separately. 
  • Components up front, coaxials in the rear, and subwoofers for bass is a classic, well-rounded system. Two sets of full range speakers up front strays from "clean well balanced sound".
 
Hey mate!

Since you have a caravan, see if you can put the biggest speakers that can fit in the required space up front.    The rest of the speakers is up to you as you may like larger speakers at the back to give you that 'background sound, whilst you can chat up front.    Would definitely recommend going components up front as per the sales person.  Just remember the general rule with subwoofers and speakers is 2:1 so whatever amp you decide to run with speakers, a monoblock class D amp should be at least twice the power of the speakers,   :graduate:  

I would certainly recommend the CLASS D amplifiers, that is full range and monobloc as they are much easier on the vehicles electrical system and with todays technology, they sound as good as the class AB amps.  JL Audio / Hertz makes some pretty small full range CLASS D amps and they are great sounding amps, but If you have good old AB amps, then no point buying other amps unless you wanna change.

Remember, its your ride so you ultimately decide what you wish to purchase and how you plan to place them around your vehicle. :fro: .

By the way, I am running a 4:1 in my ride, 200rms speaker power, to 800rms subwoofer power but with remote gain, I usually have it very low so the bass presence is always there at low volumes.  This is possible due to the remote bass gain ( which is a voltage gain on the amp to provide a better signal)

Hope this is helpful to you mate!

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Another HELL NO to the 3/4/5 way coaxials.

so my recommendation would to use your US acoustics 200 x 2 on a pair of 6x9 components.  Dont waste any money on rear speakers, leave them stock and leave them on head unit power. Put that money on a better set of front components or sound deadening.   Then grab a monoblock amp for your subs.  This would be cheaper and better sounding than whatever the shop recommended or whatever you were planning.   For any setup. always focus power, money and acoustical treatments to the front where YOU are driving and listening. 

 
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so my recommendation would to use your US acoustics 200 x 2 on a pair of 6x9 components. 
This is probably not going to work because of the size of the amp.  Due to the size, the amp will not fit under either of the front seats without sticking out.  The van is a work van so I need everything hidden (except the sub box), and I was planning on mounting the USA 2200 directly to the sub box and making a quick disconnect setup in case I need to remove it for work.  It is also my personal ride, and I do uber/lyft so I do want some better sound in the back too, but I'm OK with just upgrading the back to some cheaper 6x9's and focusing most of the money/effort on the front and sub setup.

I do want to use a newer class D amp for the main speakers since they are so much smaller.  Even that 5 channel Alpine amp is about half the size of the USA 2200 and will fit nicely under either front seat with room to spare.

What do you think as far as front speakers?  6x9 components?  6.5" components?  I know there are more choices with 6.5's, but I figured the 6x9's would probably give a little more sound.  The main thing is what to do with the tweeters.  Trying to figure out the best spot for a "not too custom" mounting of them is proving to be challenging.  And a Dodge Caravan is not exactly the most popular car for a stereo system, so I haven't been able to find any other ideas from people who have done them.

 
This is probably not going to work because of the size of the amp.  Due to the size, the amp will not fit under either of the front seats without sticking out.  The van is a work van so I need everything hidden (except the sub box), and I was planning on mounting the USA 2200 directly to the sub box and making a quick disconnect setup in case I need to remove it for work.  It is also my personal ride, and I do uber/lyft so I do want some better sound in the back too, but I'm OK with just upgrading the back to some cheaper 6x9's and focusing most of the money/effort on the front and sub setup.

I do want to use a newer class D amp for the main speakers since they are so much smaller.  Even that 5 channel Alpine amp is about half the size of the USA 2200 and will fit nicely under either front seat with room to spare.

What do you think as far as front speakers?  6x9 components?  6.5" components?  I know there are more choices with 6.5's, but I figured the 6x9's would probably give a little more sound.  The main thing is what to do with the tweeters.  Trying to figure out the best spot for a "not too custom" mounting of them is proving to be challenging.  And a Dodge Caravan is not exactly the most popular car for a stereo system, so I haven't been able to find any other ideas from people who have done them.
you normally dont want to mount amps to boxes, vibrations damage the amp's internals, no telling when your amp will die out.  If you need to remove the sub, you'll want to do a separate sub amp and separate 4 channel amp. as for small amps, full rail brazilian amps do the job best for power for tiny footprint. 




 
you normally dont want to mount amps to boxes, vibrations damage the amp's internals, no telling when your amp will die out.  If you need to remove the sub, you'll want to do a separate sub amp and separate 4 channel amp. as for small amps, full rail brazilian amps do the job best for power for tiny footprint. 
If I replace the USA 2200 with a new class D amp I can definitely keep the amp(s) mounted under the seats whether I do separate amps or just a single 5 channel amp as they are so small they will easily fit under the front seats.  And I can just  make a quick disconnect for the sub box.  So the sub end will be easier to figure out.  I'm more concerned with suggestions for the front speaker setup.  One shop told me to do components and put the tweeters up where the 3.5's were on the dash, but I feel like they will be spread too far apart and not sound right.  Another shop agreed with me on that and said the other guy was wrong, and suggested some of the higher end Alpine coaxial 6x9's in the doors and any decent pair of 3.5's to replace the cheesy stock speakers, and another one said to do components in the front doors and just forget about the 3.5's in the dash altogether.

There are just so many speakers out there to choose from, and no way to listen to most of them without buying them and trying them out.  And so many setup options.  I'm just trying to get ideas so I can hopefully do this once and be happy with the result.  I'm not opposed to spending more on better speakers, but is spending double, even triple necessary?  I was told that most of the $150 and less priced speakers are all entry-level and just slightly better replacements for stock speakers and will not sound anywhere near as good as the recommended ones (Alpine R-Series) which were closer to $300 per pair.

 
you can also go active network mode with your pioneer and can choose a superior tweeter than those type Rs.  Some massive CT2s and 

If I replace the USA 2200 with a new class D amp I can definitely keep the amp(s) mounted under the seats whether I do separate amps or just a single 5 channel amp as they are so small they will easily fit under the front seats.  And I can just  make a quick disconnect for the sub box.  So the sub end will be easier to figure out.  I'm more concerned with suggestions for the front speaker setup.  One shop told me to do components and put the tweeters up where the 3.5's were on the dash, but I feel like they will be spread too far apart and not sound right.  Another shop agreed with me on that and said the other guy was wrong, and suggested some of the higher end Alpine coaxial 6x9's in the doors and any decent pair of 3.5's to replace the cheesy stock speakers, and another one said to do components in the front doors and just forget about the 3.5's in the dash altogether.

There are just so many speakers out there to choose from, and no way to listen to most of them without buying them and trying them out.  And so many setup options.  I'm just trying to get ideas so I can hopefully do this once and be happy with the result.  I'm not opposed to spending more on better speakers, but is spending double, even triple necessary?  I was told that most of the $150 and less priced speakers are all entry-level and just slightly better replacements for stock speakers and will not sound anywhere near as good as the recommended ones (Alpine R-Series) which were closer to $300 per pair.
1st shop is right, 2nd shop is ghetto take them off your list completely. you'll have too many tweeters in the equation with that setup which will cause unwanted peaks and phase issues. The 3rd shop with the components on the doors is fine too if they can angle the tweets on axis.   Whatever you do, you need the tweets to be firing directly towards your ears.  About the distance between mid and tweet, that is all taken care of by your head unit's time alignment if you wire the mids and tweets active, time alignment is a function on the head unit that delays the signal so that all frequencies from each driver hits your ears at the same time which creates a center stage aka live performance on your dash. You do have a pioneer head unit so I would suggest ditching the passive crossover altogether and wiring the tweets to channel 1 and 2, mids to 3 and 4. Rear speakers left STOCK on head unit power. This would get you the best blend between mid range and tweeter, best clarity, best sound stage due to independent crossover and time alignment control.

Alpine type R is very mediocre to me I never liked the sound but it pleases most of the general populace.  Its like the beats by dre equivalent in the car audio speakers/subwoofers. Their amps, head units and sound processors are great though.  For 6x9s, You can look at JBL offerings, polk audio offerings for a good bit less for basically the same consumer level sound quality but they are quite a bit louder than the type Rs. If you want top level sound quality gear, look at hybrid audio technologies, audiofrog etc... Mid level gear would be image dynamics xs 6x9 and alpine type X. There's also a budget audiophile gear section i can recommend that requires active network mode setup and a 6x9 to 6.5 adapter.  Most of the good cheap stuff thats FAAAAAAR better than alpine type Rs are in 6.5 form factor sadly. Also a budget 5 channel option to the alpine is https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_40253_NVX-JAD900.5.html. Its all your choice on if you want to spend more or less on all this equipment.

Let me also help you filter out your shops.

Whatever shop knows what running active network crossovers+time alignment is and also knows how to tune your system/EQ/crossover with an RTA, DSP tuning, acoustical treatments, sound deadening, recreating factory seal/gasket, knows how to build and design custom ported/4th order/6th order and transmission line enclosures would be your absolute go to shop that definitely knows their sh*t and how to get you sounding perfect.  Any other shop saying they tune by ear, have no idea what running active or setting time alignment or what proper acoustical door treatments are, is an below average joe blow brick and mortar out to get your money. stay away.

This is how an audio engineer preps his doors for the speakers to sound absolutely perfect. https://www.caraudio.com/topic/570687-2014-accord-sport-sq-build-keep_hope_alive/

 
Thanks for all the input.  I definitely have some more research and thinking to do on this.  Just so you know, I was just going to the shops to check out speakers since some of them have sound rooms and get recommendations from people who do this for a living.  And I will most likely be buying most of the stuff from a local shop I have been dealing with since I had my first car.  As far as the install, I'm doing all of the work myself.  And as much as I'd love to go all crazy and custom, I just don't have the time and don't want to put too much into this van since it is a work van with a little over 100K on it I'm not sure how much longer I'll have it.  I have been wanting to do this since the van was brand new, but the last bunch of years between work, taking care of family and all left me no time to do this.  I even bought 4 Audiopipe 6.5" mid bass speakers and 4 Audiopipe tweeters about 2 years ago that are still sitting new in the box.  I was planning on making components in the front and back and reusing some old class AB amps I have from my old car, but it never happened.  Now due to the smaller sizes and ease of install, I'll be selling them along with a ton of other old equipment I have and starting over.  The only thing I have that I'll be reusing is the Rockford Fosgate dual 10" box.

I did a lot of nice car audio installs back when I was in my early 20's, but have been out of it for 20+ years or so now and although I do know about most of what you mentioned above, most of that won't be happening with this install.  With the exception of components up front (if I can find a good tweeter location), making some speaker adapters (if necessary), and some amp mounting plates, I am looking to do mostly a swapout of what's already there with as little messing with custom as possible.  I know that I can do much more/better if I wanted to, but I also know that I can get some pretty good sound without going too crazy, and that's why I was looking for recommendations on front stage speaker setups and best speaker types for this type of setup.  Your input has definitely helped and I thank you for it.  I will definitely be concentrating more on the front stage, and will be doing some sound deadening around the front end of the van too.  I watched the videos you linked as well as some others on these tiny mono amps and if I don't go with a single amp for the system, I will most likely be doing something similar for the bass end.

 
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