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Suggestions on batteries and capacitors.

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Dragonsyph

CarAudio.com Regular
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Hello everyone, I currently have a single xs 3100 and am needing more.  

My question is should I buy more 3100s or buy a bank of 6 xs caps for about 500 farads?

Or maybe there’s a better brand or better version of battery I should get that’s good for the price?

A bit of info, I’ll be running an Orion 5k amp with a 370amp alt.

Click to read more...
 
That amp will draw 350 amperes++ maybe more. That's a good question tho. If you have the room, knowledge/know-how on building up something like that not to mention it'll weigh less than reg AGM batteries, and costs less, I'd say go for it @hispls  Not sure who it was that was in the middle of doing the same thing on this forum. 2 batts, a HO alt and a lot of 1/0 or 2/0 OFC wiring should be ok.

 
Popwarhomie said:
I personally would build a headway lithium bank.
Click to expand...
Why headway?  They're generally pretty poor even for LiFePO4, which IMO is pretty much obsolete already what with LTO technology what it is.

Boomin_tahoe said:
That amp will draw 350 amperes++ maybe more. That's a good question tho. If you have the room, knowledge/know-how on building up something like that not to mention it'll weigh less than reg AGM batteries, and costs less, I'd say go for it @hispls  Not sure who it was that was in the middle of doing the same thing on this forum. 2 batts, a HO alt and a lot of 1/0 or 2/0 OFC wiring should be ok.
Click to expand...

Here's a copypaste of a discussion I had about these with Stephen Mantz.   We were discussing a nominal 9K amp so divide by 2 for the "5K" Orion
Energy is C x V x V in Joules.
 
So you are stuck with 14.4v squared  = 207.36 now multiply this by some cap value.
 
Putting 6 of the 2.7v caps in series drops you to 500F
 
Now assuming 12kW of input power to the amplifier you require 36,000 Joules of energy.
 
So 36,000/207.36 = 173F
In short a bank of supercaps stores enough energy to power 5K amp fully for about 5 seconds and that's assuming you can get 100% charge (you can't at 14.4) and 100% discharge at useful voltage (you also can't).

Link I posted is the LTO battery thread which I planned to update today with some new stuff.  I think 5KW amp is already getting beyond the size where AGMs are practical.

 
Popwarhomie said:
Just cheap, easy to get, and many people with experience with them.  Not sayings its the best, just what I would do personally. 
Click to expand...
They're over 20$ a pop for only 8AH cell with relatively low C rating and LiFePO4 poor performance in extreme temperatures.   Yes, we know what they can do and they're available, but they're a poor choice for car audio when you consider our other options.

 
Loving all the feedback,  been looking around and reading a bunch of threads and want to throw in another option. 

How about the XS 12V-500F SuperBanks for about 400 dollars? 

I'm not sure what the difference is between 6 xs power caps vs a 12V-500F SuperBanks from XS, is the superbank just caps in a box with terminals? 

I also came across this for about 400 dollars, Northstar SMSAGM220 + GP24 Terminals, seems like a pretty decent deal, seems to have lower AH and CCA then others for the price though, reserve cap seems top notch.  

Not sure which stat i should be looking at,   AH,  CCA, Reserve capacity, max amps.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
hispls said:
They're over 20$ a pop for only 8AH cell with relatively low C rating and LiFePO4 poor performance in extreme temperatures.   Yes, we know what they can do and they're available, but they're a poor choice for car audio when you consider our other options.
Click to expand...
Didn't you have to place quite a large bulk order to China to get yours though? Im going to go re read your thread now.

 
hispls said:
Why headway?  They're generally pretty poor even for LiFePO4, which IMO is pretty much obsolete already what with LTO technology what it is.



Here's a copypaste of a discussion I had about these with Stephen Mantz.   We were discussing a nominal 9K amp so divide by 2 for the "5K" Orion
Energy is C x V x V in Joules.
 
So you are stuck with 14.4v squared  = 207.36 now multiply this by some cap value.
 
Putting 6 of the 2.7v caps in series drops you to 500F
 
Now assuming 12kW of input power to the amplifier you require 36,000 Joules of energy.
 
So 36,000/207.36 = 173F
In short a bank of supercaps stores enough energy to power 5K amp fully for about 5 seconds and that's assuming you can get 100% charge (you can't at 14.4) and 100% discharge at useful voltage (you also can't).

Link I posted is the LTO battery thread which I planned to update today with some new stuff.  I think 5KW amp is already getting beyond the size where AGMs are practical.
Click to expand...
So it would last about 5 seconds, how fast would that 370 amp alt recharge those>?  Could that be enough for bumping on drives to work and around town with out droping alot of voltage>?

What exactly do i need to just bump around town and to work every day with a 370amp alt and single d3100?  Site says two d3100 would be enough but i doubt that. 

Is there a site or thread with a calculator that will tell you how much AH you need for a certain amount of watts at CONTINUOUS usage that's accurate? 

Was planning to use my 370 tell i can afford a dual bracket, then put back in the old one and put the new one in for dual alts,  but then run the car just off the stock one,  and then use the 370 just for my car audio set up.  But then i would need a separate battery for under the hood right?  Then right wire straight from my 370 alt to the back to a battery? 

I could go on and on and on about this stuff all day lol, i just cant get enough of every aspect of car audio.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dragonsyph said:
is the superbank just caps in a box with terminals? 
Click to expand...
Yes

Dragonsyph said:
Northstar SMSAGM220
Click to expand...
If the size and weight doesn't bother you that's a decent deal for NorthStar AGM.  I'd suggest two of them if you really wanted to keep your voltage solid.

Popwarhomie said:
Didn't you have to place quite a large bulk order to China
Click to expand...
Just to get the slow/cheap shipping option.  There's like 100KG tier that they need to ship by sea.  On the up-side if you pay for "express" shipping they're delivered to your door in like a week (I waited nearly 6 weeks).

Dragonsyph said:
So it would last about 5 seconds, how fast would that 370 amp alt recharge those>?
Click to expand...
Considering there's absolutely no way in Hell you're getting 370A real world and you still have to run the car, charge your actual batteries and continue to feed the amps assuming you're playing music I'd say at least 10-15 seconds.   Caps deliver huge surge current really fast and charge really fast but they have rather low storage capacity (for our purposes anyway) and you're still limited by how quick you can really charge them.  Consider also you're probably not charging them up to 15.5V so you're leaving a bit on the table when comparing with a true full charge.

Dragonsyph said:
Could that be enough for bumping on drives to work and around town with out droping alot of voltage>?
Click to expand...
One way to find out....

Dragonsyph said:
Is there a site or thread with a calculator that will tell you how much AH you need for a certain amount of watts at CONTINUOUS usage that's accurate?
Click to expand...
Not really.  Conventional wisdom with AGM is you want one 55AH size battery per 1000W to hang really strong.   As far as various flavors of lithium it's very dependent on "C Rating" of the cells, and of course it comes down to your listening habits and other unique install dependent factors.  

If you use dual alt there's no reason to not have them parallel to your battery/cap bank/system/vehicle unless you plan to run 18V to your amp.  I'd say dual HO alts, a solid AGM under the hood, and cap bank would keep your voltage rock solid.  If you can easily find/build dual alt bracket this would probably be your best option for being able to draw as much current as that amp ever needs until you run out of gas to keep the alternators spinning and taking up the least amount of space.

 
Thanks a million, hispls, I love learning about all these things and you have helped me a lot. 

Guess overdoing it can't hurt right haha, maybe I'll just go with another d3100 then start adding additional superbanks so I don't have to wire any caps up.  But then again a bank of caps on display is the sort of things i like. 

Down the road i planned on buying a dual alt bracket and putting my stock alt back in to run just the car, then using my 370 just for the car audio.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dragonsyph said:
Guess overdoing it can't hurt right
Click to expand...
That's the spirit!

Dragonsyph said:
I'll just go with another d3100 then start adding additional superbanks
Click to expand...
The only caveat being if you were considering Lithium you'd be shooting yourself in the foot trying to mix and match so don't go buying a bunch of AGM if you plan to use any litnium in the future.

Dragonsyph said:
Down the road i planned on buying a dual alt bracket and putting my stock alt back in to run just the car,
Click to expand...
Not really worth the trouble doing that kind of mod for only the stock alternator which real-world won't deliver much... again, unless you plan to run your amp at 18V, even then, it seems silly to not upgrade both. 

 
hispls said:
That's the spirit!

The only caveat being if you were considering Lithium you'd be shooting yourself in the foot trying to mix and match so don't go buying a bunch of AGM if you plan to use any litnium in the future.

Not really worth the trouble doing that kind of mod for only the stock alternator which real-world won't deliver much... again, unless you plan to run your amp at 18V, even then, it seems silly to not upgrade both. 
Click to expand...
Ya that makes sense, thanks again, as for lithium not sure if i wanna go down that road yet or not.   The build is like a 1 item buy a month thing so its gonna take me a while, just spit balling ideas.  

Are there prebuilt lithium racks that are pretty decent price and using newest technology?  All the lithium bats iv seen cost like 1500-5000 dollars each which seems insane.  

 
Dragonsyph said:
Are there prebuilt lithium racks that are pretty decent price and using newest technology?
Click to expand...
I don't believe there are any LTO batteries for retail sale yet but I'd be shocked if someone isn't working on tooling up a case and bus design. 

Dragonsyph said:
All the lithium bats iv seen cost like 1500-5000 dollars each which seems insane.  
Click to expand...
You could DIY LiFePO4 for about half the cost if you wanted.   Really the "markup" over the cost of materials is pretty fair if these companies are trying to run a business and offer warranty support.   You would probably do fine with just 40AH size for LiFePO4 BUT you definitely would not want to try to add a second alternator to that.   AFAIK that size LiFePO4 runs 1000-1200$.   Really not too far out of line for what you'd pay for enough AGM to hold the same voltage real-world and saving loads of weight and space.   Life expectancy should be a bit better for any lithium than AGM so unless you get really unlucky you do save in the long run either way I think.

That said if you live in a place where it gets extreme cold you might avoid LiFePO4.  Their ratings really go down the toilet below freezing.

Personally I'm really stoked with performance of the LTO cells, but it's a bit more of a commitment and DIY only sort of option.

 
hispls said:
I don't believe there are any LTO batteries for retail sale yet but I'd be shocked if someone isn't working on tooling up a case and bus design. 

You could DIY LiFePO4 for about half the cost if you wanted.   Really the "markup" over the cost of materials is pretty fair if these companies are trying to run a business and offer warranty support.   You would probably do fine with just 40AH size for LiFePO4 BUT you definitely would not want to try to add a second alternator to that.   AFAIK that size LiFePO4 runs 1000-1200$.   Really not too far out of line for what you'd pay for enough AGM to hold the same voltage real-world and saving loads of weight and space.   Life expectancy should be a bit better for any lithium than AGM so unless you get really unlucky you do save in the long run either way I think.

That said if you live in a place where it gets extreme cold you might avoid LiFePO4.  Their ratings really go down the toilet below freezing.

Personally I'm really stoked with performance of the LTO cells, but it's a bit more of a commitment and DIY only sort of option.
Click to expand...
Ya it’s 19f out right now lol its freezing 1/3 the year.   But I’ll keep my options open tell I make them purchase.

so you think using stock alt on a sep battery just to run my car, and the 370 hooked only up to my bats for my car audio is bad idea?  

Wanna say thanks again for all the information and help. 

 
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Dragonsyph

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