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Montanan

Antique car advice needed and Hello!

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Hi All, 

Just popped in for some advice on a sound system for an old bug.  I want to make the most of the acoustics or lack there of but don't know where to start..

I got a cheap ass mechless head unit from the parts house and started putting things together. So far, so Good. The stereo comes on, the one speaker I have hooked to it right now makes noise, life is good.

Now in an old bug there is a cavity behind the back seat that you can stuff luggage in, or cover it and fill it with speakers. It had a cover when I bought it so I thought I would rebuild it, stuff more speakers in it and make my ears ring when running down the road I have 2 6x9's, 2 6" round 2 4'? square, all of unknown origin. They make noise but the are probably not wired up right. I ran wires off of the speakers and connected them in ...parallel? Basically I took 3 + wires and 3 - wires and crimped them to my heavy wire running through the car from the head unit.

I wanted to know if a 10" sub in the back back with two 6x9's on either side of the back seat and those itty bitty tweeters up front wouldn't serve my needs better?  I imagine there could be or has been long, long threads arguing the most minuscule details of everything from quality of components to static air pressure but I am not interested in that. I am an old school metal head and I want shear volume without shattering my glass or vibrating like some do.

The 10" is a 500w cheapo, the itty bitty tweeters are 400w, and the two new 6x9's are 200w. The radio is only 4x15w. Will I need an amp to get some head ringing noise out of either speaker set up? Is there a better option(s) for seriously making your head hurt AND be a cheap ass? Not going gold tipped ends and 5kw alternator to keep from melting the car, Just wanna rock really hard in a really small space.

The blue one is mine and the red one shows the luggage area where I currently have sketchily wired speakers and no amp. In the red bug, the back seats back sits up straight between the wheel wells so there is not a ton of space there.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

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luggage tray.jpg

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I did a bug for a friend of mine back in like 91 while I was working in GA.He had an older Alpine HU and we used an older Coustic 3 way xover. we put in 2 S.Stream 200s in on a pair of Kenwood 2 way 6x9s in the doors and a pair in the back on each side with a pair of cheesy Pyramid tweets on the so called dash, with an old Hifonics VII Cyclops on a pair of old still water Kicker svc 4 ohm 10s in a sealed enclosure, and it sounded fantastic.


2)American Bass VFL Mini Hybrid 4480.1D@1ohm Ea 4)American Bass XFL DVC 4ohm 12s@2.06cu Ft Ea.@32htz CDT 6,5 HD6 Briax.,CDT CL60,CDT 25 tweets,Kicker KS25 tweets Autotek Mean Machine 99@2ohms,Autotek BTX 7204@40hms AlterStarts Alt 255A/Dallas,Tx,2)Orileys Super Start AGM batts(1more coming)Cadence CCA 0ga on Big 6,AudioTechnix 0ga CCA Kicker Kq9 Eq,Eclipse CD3000(lookingfor upgrade)StingerPro Distro,3)XS Scorpian 8in Scroll Fans 1998 3dr Xcab Chevy(under construction,but operational)

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You can buy speaker pods now days to screw to the sheet metal rather than cutting holes in the doors ect.,One good 10" sub will sound good in there like the Dayton Ho will be great for your listening of metal music.Id run at 2 ohm mono on sub duty.Can run another battery to keep up with supply needs.


2)American Bass VFL Mini Hybrid 4480.1D@1ohm Ea 4)American Bass XFL DVC 4ohm 12s@2.06cu Ft Ea.@32htz CDT 6,5 HD6 Briax.,CDT CL60,CDT 25 tweets,Kicker KS25 tweets Autotek Mean Machine 99@2ohms,Autotek BTX 7204@40hms AlterStarts Alt 255A/Dallas,Tx,2)Orileys Super Start AGM batts(1more coming)Cadence CCA 0ga on Big 6,AudioTechnix 0ga CCA Kicker Kq9 Eq,Eclipse CD3000(lookingfor upgrade)StingerPro Distro,3)XS Scorpian 8in Scroll Fans 1998 3dr Xcab Chevy(under construction,but operational)

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Nice Bug!! I bet gas mileage is sweet as well. Id drive that all over the place for sure.


2)American Bass VFL Mini Hybrid 4480.1D@1ohm Ea 4)American Bass XFL DVC 4ohm 12s@2.06cu Ft Ea.@32htz CDT 6,5 HD6 Briax.,CDT CL60,CDT 25 tweets,Kicker KS25 tweets Autotek Mean Machine 99@2ohms,Autotek BTX 7204@40hms AlterStarts Alt 255A/Dallas,Tx,2)Orileys Super Start AGM batts(1more coming)Cadence CCA 0ga on Big 6,AudioTechnix 0ga CCA Kicker Kq9 Eq,Eclipse CD3000(lookingfor upgrade)StingerPro Distro,3)XS Scorpian 8in Scroll Fans 1998 3dr Xcab Chevy(under construction,but operational)

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ok, dumb it down. alot please. And thanks! I love my Helga! Gas mileage isn't as sweet as you expect 20 to 35 depending on your driving style and if the engine is stock or not, It seems fairly easy to improve on these lil beasts and get better than stock mileage. I drive like Andretti and still get about 26ish MPG

Now lets start at the beginning with wtf a xover is where you put it, what it does, etc. Coustic is a brand?

What is 2 S.Stream 200s? speakers I bet...

I googled Hifonics VII Cyclops and that brought me to the question of amps.  Which I was wondering about. How do I determine how big of an amp I need vs. Want?

Extra battery? Clearly you have never worked on one of these micro knuckle busters. I bet it is technically possible, but I wouldn't want to get that complicated to begin with.

Now I have a whole bunch of stuff to figure out instead of an easy pre packaged answer that I can afford...Do I start whining now or in a month from now when I still don't know what any of this stuff is? I work at a parts house and get great deals on way overpriced stuff. which coupled with some learning keeps me out of the mechanics shop.

More dumb questions to follow...

 

 

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And can you dumb this down please? I culled it off the website that mfgrs my cheap ass system.

Your Class D amplifier was engineered with specific linear circuitry that improves sound quality and power output while reducing distortion and refining efficiency for unrivaled sound superiority. We anticipated continuous use of your car amplifier so we engineered a High Current & Efficient MOSFET design that enables you to have insurmountable power. So we included the Full Range Crossover, which will allow you to link two high performance series amplifiers together for double the output and streamlined efficiency. Your Dual amplifier has a variable low-pass crossover (40Hz – 250Hz), variable high-pass crossover (40Hz – 250Hz), variable bass boost at 50Hz (0-12 dB) and variable gain adjustment (200mV ~ 6V). In addition, we added high and low level outputs, which allow high-level inputs to accept the speaker output signals and low-level inputs that accept preamp output signals. We cannot stress safety enough here at Dual Electronics so we designed a built-in short circuit protection via a thermal and DC offset safety for your amplifier that is Built for the Road Ahead."

That means nothing to me.....Sounds like blah blah blah buzz word price check

I hooked up my old speakers, they have to go...

 

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Howdy, old cars are fun. 

I recommend some reading up on terminology and concepts as you enter into the endeavor.  www.bcae1.com is recommended for getting a grasp on what each component is and what they can do - use the shortcuts on the right of the screen to jump to topics such as "crossover or xover".

I assume the text you quoted is from an amplifier and not the mechless head unit.  Please share the model number of each of your components so we can make specific recommendations.

 

Sounds like you did wire the speakers in parallel.  It is not likely that the amplifier or head unit will be happy with that arrangement.  The head unit only wants one speaker for each output, more than one speaker per output will cause it to run hot and eventually fail or shut off. 

Most old speakers suffer from foam surround rot or deterioration.  Some used cloth and last forever. 

You can mix up speaker locations but you are unlikely to be happy with just tweeters in front.  Tweeters without corresponding (and closely located) midrange drivers usually sound poor.  You're likely to be happier with just loading up the rear.  Note that enclosures improve how a speaker sounds and you need to separate the rear airspace from the front as good as possible.  If you put a pair of 6x9s in dedicated boxes in the rear and combined that with a 10" subwoofer, all you'd need is a 4 channel amplifier to power it all. 

 

 


2014 Accord Sport build log:

My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkYUo2EShW9lgtrfXiDvLNQ/videos

My 1966 MGB Restoration: http://www.mgexp.com/journal/keephopealive

Fix Photobucket Image Loading ------> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/photobucket-fix/ <------

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So If I wire the 6x9's one per channel, I will get better volume than three wired together? ok, sounds logical. I can put the 6x9's in the back, the 5'" in the door panels and be ok? like loud ok? I am a tight ass and don't want to spend any more than I have to. How do I know if the used speakers I have are worth keeping as far as quality goes?

The parts house I work at sells Dual electronics. I imagine it is a hybrid of old and terrible, but it seems better than the jvc tape deck I am replacing. I got the XRM46BT  from dual electronics along with 2 dual electronics DWS654 speakers. I figure if I stick to the same brand I wont have as many compatibility issues. I want the da904 amp but don't know if I really need it.

I understand what was said about keeping the air above and below a speaker separated as much as possible, but why?

There are both open and sealed sub woofer boxes, not sure the advantages of each. IDK whats happening to my text but if it looks F Dup, it is not on purpose. The HU has some presets available, concert hall, rock, jazz, etc. Rock sounds ok so I imagine I don't need a ...mixer? What ever you call the gizmo you use to change specific freq's.

If I do decide to go with an amp, how do I know how big of one to get? If I have to get one I want something that will peak just below what my speakers are rated at so I have a little built in blow up protection. Maybe I still need to research this subject

 

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On 10/8/2018 at 9:10 PM, Montanan said:

So If I wire the 6x9's one per channel, I will get better volume than three wired together? ok, sounds logical. I can put the 6x9's in the back, the 5'" in the door panels and be ok? like loud ok? I am a tight ass and don't want to spend any more than I have to. How do I know if the used speakers I have are worth keeping as far as quality goes?

The parts house I work at sells Dual electronics. I imagine it is a hybrid of old and terrible, but it seems better than the jvc tape deck I am replacing. I got the XRM46BT  from dual electronics along with 2 dual electronics DWS654 speakers. I figure if I stick to the same brand I wont have as many compatibility issues. I want the da904 amp but don't know if I really need it.

I understand what was said about keeping the air above and below a speaker separated as much as possible, but why?

There are both open and sealed sub woofer boxes, not sure the advantages of each. IDK whats happening to my text but if it looks F Dup, it is not on purpose. The HU has some presets available, concert hall, rock, jazz, etc. Rock sounds ok so I imagine I don't need a ...mixer? What ever you call the gizmo you use to change specific freq's.

If I do decide to go with an amp, how do I know how big of one to get? If I have to get one I want something that will peak just below what my speakers are rated at so I have a little built in blow up protection. Maybe I still need to research this subject

 

It's not that you'll get better volume from one speaker per channel, it's that it will be safer in the long run.

You will be louder with an external amp over just a head unit.  And it will sound better at higher volumes. 

Without an enclosure, the lower frequencies cancel.  you can hear this by listening to a speaker out of an enclosure vs. in and enclosure (before you screw it into the box, power it up, play music with some bass, and listen with it out of the enclosure vs. in.   Speakers with ports behave as if they are enclosed except the have a port that resonates and affects the air-spring compliance of the enclosure at some frequencies.

An equalizer adjusts frequency bands.  A mixer combines multiple music sources.  The preset settings for Rock is typically enjoyable. 

You can get an amp that can provide 300W per channel but set gains and volume level so only 1W is actually provided.  Typically, you want more power available than you need since max power output includes max distortion. 

 

 

 


2014 Accord Sport build log:

My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkYUo2EShW9lgtrfXiDvLNQ/videos

My 1966 MGB Restoration: http://www.mgexp.com/journal/keephopealive

Fix Photobucket Image Loading ------> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/photobucket-fix/ <------

2016caraudiologos (2).jpg

 

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Safer in the long run how?

If I understand correctly, I don't want the smaller amp because it will cause distortion at some point, but wouldn't a bigger amp do the same thing? I thought distortion was more about the quality of the speakers than the signal going to it.

So a 300 w amp is 300 per channel? If my speakers are only rated at 200w, that should be plenty, right? Am I still missing it?

Thanks in advance!
p.s. I am working my way through http://www.bcae1.com

 

 

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17 hours ago, Montanan said:

Safer in the long run how?

If I understand correctly, I don't want the smaller amp because it will cause distortion at some point, but wouldn't a bigger amp do the same thing? I thought distortion was more about the quality of the speakers than the signal going to it.

So a 300 w amp is 300 per channel? If my speakers are only rated at 200w, that should be plenty, right? Am I still missing it?

Thanks in advance!
p.s. I am working my way through http://www.bcae1.com

 

 

Most head units have pretty anemic output (7-8W real world) and they definitely won't like driving a bunch of speakers in parallel.  

Luckily for you there's loads of options for tiny 5 channel amps that could power a couple pair of 6X9s and a 10" sub that would absolutely scream with metal.   Might I even suggest a single 8" sub may do as well or better if space is of prime concern.   All things equal a smaller sub in the right size box will outperform a larger sub in a too-small box.  Figure out precise dimensions of the place you can put a box and go from there.

I've had great results with JBL product line.   Get a coaxial 6X9 for simplicity, let your amp handle the crossing over, add a sub, and be done.   Any coaxial/component speaker that advertises 200W is flat out lying, and in truth you really don't need more than 75W per channel on 4 efficient 6X9s to get very loud (trust me when I say very loud).

I run the Phoenix Gold 1200.5 in my Camry and it's a great little amp.   Might call up Stephen at Zed Audio (business hours pacific time) or drop him an email and see if he has any left there (he designed these).   Otherwise I'm sure there's comparable small footprint 5 channel amps that can be had that'd get the job done.  Provided you have a high quality AGM battery under the hood (premium parts store brand should do) you'll have ample electrical to power up a modern full range class D 100X4/300X1 type amp.

Even smaller amp options exist but will become a little more complicated.   Power comes in small packages these days and if you wanted to get crazy battery power (read lithium technology) allows some amazing things.  

Simpler still would be to just get a nice small 2 channel that would drive 4 coaxials and put them all in a box along the back in that little pocket.   4 6X9s in a tight sealed box should deliver some decent low frequency response on their own and provided you don't mind all the sound coming from behind you that would also be very loud 70's-80's style.

 

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