Winners only.

[Kayge]

I read through them and can see where the POTUS and Vice-POTUS have the authority to classify and declassify, and can delegate that authority to others, but cannot see where it says they can do so without following the formal procedures (as in "thinking" a document into or out of a classified state).

"President" is mentioned 8 times in the one doc and 60 in the other. Can you point out where it says in this 2009 EO that the process can be merely a "thought"?

There is none in the EO and that's why its being challenged.

The executive order states a policy that the president has absolute control over. In fact, that executive order was re-written by Obama himself in '09. Regardless of what the policy says in the EO, the actual ruling gives the president authority to stand above the executive order.

Again, quoting Steven Aftergood who is the subject matter expert on this says and i quote the president can "classify and declassify at will."

The official documents governing classification and declassification stem from executive orders. But even these executive orders aren’t necessarily binding on the president. The president is not "obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed," Aftergood said. "And he can change those."

 

[Kayge]

But hey if it makes you feel better to believe Trump "thought" his treasure trove of classified docs unclassified, you run with that.

Just to respond to this directly since its more of an insulation then anything .... no, it does not make me feel good that at sitting president has that much broad control over our nations security.

But here is another quote that at least lends an argument on the matter and puts the ruling into a bit more perspective.

Robert F. Turner, associate director of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law, said that "if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds of information with Russia, it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues."

 

[RobGMN]

There is none in the EO and that's why its being challenged.

The executive order states a policy that the president has absolute control over. In fact, that executive order was re-written by Obama himself in '09. Regardless of what the policy says in the EO, the actual ruling gives the president authority to stand above the executive order.

Again, quoting Steven Aftergood who is the subject matter expert on this says and i quote the president can "classify and declassify at will."

So, he has to follow procedures he has prescribed. He can change those procedures, but then he has to follow the changed procedure.

Did any POTUS change the procedure or create a procedure to say that classification/declassification can be done simply by thought? If not, then he has to follow whatever procedure is already in place.

 

[Kayge]

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So, he has to follow procedures he has prescribed. He can change those procedures, but then he has to follow the changed procedure.

Did any POTUS change the procedure or create a procedure to say that classification/declassification can be done simply by thought? If not, then he has to follow whatever procedure is already in place.

Aftergood himself states the president has no obligation to the EO.

I don't know how it can be any more clear.

 

[RobGMN]

Aftergood himself states the president has no obligation to the EO.

I don't know how it can be any more clear.

He said the POTUS is obliged to follow procedures that he himself has prescribed.
Ha also said the POTUS can change those procedures.
A procedure cannot just be "I decided to do this at this moment".

So, has any POTUS ever made a procedure that allows for "declassification by thought"?

 

[Kayge]

He said the POTUS is obliged to follow procedures that he himself has prescribed.
Ha also said the POTUS can change those procedures.
A procedure cannot just be "I decided to do this at this moment".

So, has any POTUS ever made a procedure that allows for "declassification by thought"?

Who said the POTUS is obligated to follow procedure?

"The president is not obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed," Aftergood said. "And he can change those.

If a president’s appointees disagree with those actions, the president "can overrule their decisions" "Within the executive branch, the president is the boss."

 

[RobGMN]

Who said the POTUS is obligated to follow procedure?

Steven Aftergood. You included the quote in your post directly above this one.

He is "not obliged to follow any procedures other than those he himself has prescribed". Ergo, he is obliged to follow procedures he himself has prescribed.
A procedure is not just a thought of doing something and then doing it. If it were, the POTUS could just do whatever the hell they want, and then claim "I made the procedure, but have since made a new procedure. In my head."

 

[Jimi77]

What you are reading in the order pertains to a declassification process that applies to people lower in the chain of command. Declassification is usually delegated by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president. However, in the ruling it specifically states this. . .



Here is another direct quote from Steven Aftergood who is the director of the FAS.



The president even has the ability to modify or re-write the executive order itself.

So look, I'm not arguing that its bad practice to give a sitting president this much authority over classified documents. Sorry if this bit of news is scary to everyone. . but based on the ruling, Trump is not wrong when he says he had the power to declassify those documents at his own will and discretion. At the very least. . its a valid argument

So what he is ACTAULLY being accused of is sharing the information before it was actually declassified.

FEDS find documents
They say you shared secret information
Trump says "oh yea . . . those. . . I declared those de-classified"

The burden of proof is on the FEDS. If they had a strong case i think they would have met that burden by now. They don't, so they are challenging the law and the court ruling

Unless that executive order has been rewritten, POTUS still has to follow the existing order. FYI it hasn't been rewritten. Since it hasn't been rewritten Trump (or Biden or Pence) must abide by the fact that they cannot declassified intel as per outlined in the executive order.

What fantasy world do people live on where they actually believe POTUS can declassify intel that endangers human assets, the country, agency assets, etc "at will?" If Obama's executive order actually granted such unchecked powers, Hannity & Co would have raised holy hell.

It's not like Trump violated the Espionage Act. He's guilty of minor non-criminal offense. There is no need to twist & distort reality to defend the guy.

 

[Jimi77]

I read through them and can see where the POTUS and Vice-POTUS have the authority to classify and declassify, and can delegate that authority to others, but cannot see where it says they can do so without following the formal procedures (as in "thinking" a document into or out of a classified state).

"President" is mentioned 8 times in the one doc and 60 in the other. Can you point out where it says in this 2009 EO that the process can be merely a "thought"?

What happens if a POTUS "thinks" a document into being classified, but tells no one? Can someone be prosecuted for sharing that classified info when no one but the POTUS knows it is classified?
That's an awfully slippery slope for a court ruling to say no procedures are necessary.

That's because there are criteria that intel has to meet in order to be declassified. Can you imagine Joe "where am I" Biden declassifying whatever popped onto his head? Or Trump, who wouldn't even pay attention to his intel briefing?

 

[Jimi77]

Just to respond to this directly since its more of an insulation then anything .... no, it does not make me feel good that at sitting president has that much broad control over our nations security.

But here is another quote that at least lends an argument on the matter and puts the ruling into a bit more perspective.

That's a great quote, but how does that countermand the fact the Executive Order specifically says only intel that no longer meets the criteria of needing to be classified can they either be downgraded or declassified?

 

[Jimi77]

View attachment 46729

So, he has to follow procedures he has prescribed. He can change those procedures, but then he has to follow the changed procedure.

Did any POTUS change the procedure or create a procedure to say that classification/declassification can be done simply by thought? If not, then he has to follow whatever procedure is already in place.

Of course there is process. Otherwise, you'd have the FBI looking for classified docs that they don't realize were unclassified. You'd have intel experts guarding secrets that have been declassified.

 

[RobGMN]

Of course there is process. Otherwise, you'd have the FBI looking for classified docs that they don't realize were unclassified. You'd have intel experts guarding secrets that have been declassified.

And people illegally sharing classified info that no one knows is classified.

 

[RobGMN]

Left-winger pretending to be a right-winger, pretending to be a left-winger in order to make right-wingers look bad?

 

[Jimi77]

And people illegally sharing classified info that no one knows is classified.

Good point if the POTUS can also think anything he wants to classified status, that would be an intel nightmare as well. Not only that, but you have different levels of access. So say somebody with a Secret clearance is accessing what he believes to be Secret intel, but 3 days ago Sleepy Joe thought, "Gee, that should be Top Secret" and it goes on and on and on...

It'd be really convenient for everybody involved if the POTUS and VP could just think things unclassified; that clears Biden, Pence and Trump. The Dems are in the clear because Sleepy Joe did nothing wrong. The GOP doesn't have to figure out how to impeach Biden without dragging Trump into the mess.

In the end all these guys are probably guilty of non-criminal charges, so I don't get the mental gymnastics trying to defend them. In the end what I find disturbing is apparently classified intel just isn't taken seriously at the WH regardless of who is in charge.

 

[Jimi77]

Left-winger pretending to be a right-winger, pretending to be a left-winger in order to make right-wingers look bad?

View attachment 46751

He's the exception that proves the rule that right wing protests only turn violent when left wing agents provocateurs are present.