CarAudio.com - Hal
AI Bots
Helper Bot
In your situation, upgrading to an aftermarket amplifier while integrating with the factory setup can be a bit tricky but definitely achievable. Let’s break down your options:
### Option A:
Using the RCA outputs from the aftermarket stereo to send the signal back to where the Y-split occurs. This option retains the existing wiring setup primarily but adds amplification only to the rear speakers while leaving the front speakers powered from the stereo.
Pros:
- Simplicity: You can use your existing wiring without much modification.
- Familiar setup: Working with the split means less uncertainty about how it all integrates.
Cons:
- The front speakers will still run off the lower output of the aftermarket stereo (22W RMS), which might not provide enough power for your components that handle 90W RMS.
### Option B:
This option utilizes the RCA outputs while bypassing the factory amp. Here, you'd connect the aftermarket amp directly to the rear and front speakers, taking advantage of the additional power.
Pros:
- Better performance: The components can operate closer to their rated RMS, potentially improving sound quality, especially in the front.
- More balanced sound: Using the aftermarket amp for both sets of speakers allows you to adjust levels for a fuller sound.
Cons:
- More complex: Bypassing the factory amp will require more reworking of the current wiring and figuring out how to connect everything.
### Recommendation
I suggest leaning toward Option B if you're aiming for better overall sound quality, especially with components that handle 90W RMS. This setup allows your speakers to utilize their full potential, resulting in a more robust audio experience.
1. Bypass the factory amp: Disconnect the factory amp and reroute the wires from your new amp directly to the speakers.
2. Use RCA outs for both front and rear: Connect the front and rear speakers to the aftermarket amp.
3. Power handling: Ensure your amp’s RMS ratings match or are appropriate for your speakers to avoid damage.
Don't forget to tune the amp after installation to adjust the sound as per your preference!
Feel free to ask more specific questions, or if any members have experience with similar setups, they should chime in!
If you're crossing the drivers actively, you will need dedicated amplified channels for every driver. As long as the signal reaching the amplifier is dedicated left or right, front or rear, it doesn't matter if you split them before the amplification.
So, front R/L split three ways to a 6-channel amplifier, front stage done.
Rear R/L split four ways to a 4-ch amp, rear fill done.
Or a single 8-ch for front and back using the head unit amplifier (that 22 watts is closer to 15) for the tweeters only, and only then if you must.
A 4-ch amp is only doable if you are using passive crossovers that are fed a signal to an amplified channel first, then that amplified channel goes to a passive crossover (2 or 3-way), then on to the designated drivers.
So, front R/L split three ways to a 6-channel amplifier, front stage done.
Rear R/L split four ways to a 4-ch amp, rear fill done.
Or a single 8-ch for front and back using the head unit amplifier (that 22 watts is closer to 15) for the tweeters only, and only then if you must.
A 4-ch amp is only doable if you are using passive crossovers that are fed a signal to an amplified channel first, then that amplified channel goes to a passive crossover (2 or 3-way), then on to the designated drivers.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #4
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my curiousity! ..
I am fairly committed to using the 4 channel, as it is not a huge price to pay and is also VERY compact allowing me to install behind the head unit.
I completely understand that using a 6 channel for the application would certainly result in a more balanced and quality sound output. That said...
I was thinking Option B would be best, but your hesitance to use the 4 channel amp made me dig deeper to understand why you would think so. I found that not only would I be splitting the amperage to the drivers that would be wired together on the same feed, but also If wired in parallel, which they are, the Impedance would end up changing the Impedance to 2 Ohms .. which would be too low for the amp I purchased to handle ... so...
I think what I will do is....
Use the 4 channel amp to power the front door components (passing through the cross over supplied with the set). and also amplify the rear-most 4x10.(I know, its an odd size that isn't really a "community favorite" in the car audio world)
and then use the rear channel head unit feed 22 (15) W feed for the mid- door speakers...
keeping in mind, that I dont want to have to buy any more expensive parts, or overly complicate the installation. this is likely the best compromise. I guess Ill have to just be satisfied with a little less power going to 2 of the six speaker locations.
PLEASE feel free to school me on a different way to look at it if you see fit, or if Im overlooking a different solution
Again, Thanks!
To advise in a manner consistent with a true consultation, and keeping your budgetary constraints intact, I need to know a few things first.
And please, don't be shy here; nobody is interested in what you are using. I mean, it's not a contest. But it's like a doctor trying to advise on a treatment when the only information from the patient is, "I don't feel good".
Heres what I need to get yo thebest results with the equipment and budget you have established.
What year, make, and model of car are we working with?
Which Sony amp?
Many, almost all Sony amps are 2-ohm stable, so it's important to know.
Which make and model of speaker are you considering?
How are we getting signal from the OEM head unit to the amp?
Additionally, using the gear that you indicate is your preference in the endgame?
Do you want the best sound you can get, the most immersive (think giant headphones), correct imaging and soundstage, or just great sound all over the car (think surround sound)?
These are two distinctly different approaches that require different installations.
What are your listening preferences?
Rock?
Mozart?
50's/60's/70's or just plain old Tony Orlando and Dawn?
Ultimately, your money, your call, but I need to know that stuff to advise with any degree of certainty of the outcome.
And please, don't be shy here; nobody is interested in what you are using. I mean, it's not a contest. But it's like a doctor trying to advise on a treatment when the only information from the patient is, "I don't feel good".
Heres what I need to get yo thebest results with the equipment and budget you have established.
What year, make, and model of car are we working with?
Which Sony amp?
Many, almost all Sony amps are 2-ohm stable, so it's important to know.
Which make and model of speaker are you considering?
How are we getting signal from the OEM head unit to the amp?
Additionally, using the gear that you indicate is your preference in the endgame?
Do you want the best sound you can get, the most immersive (think giant headphones), correct imaging and soundstage, or just great sound all over the car (think surround sound)?
These are two distinctly different approaches that require different installations.
What are your listening preferences?
Rock?
Mozart?
50's/60's/70's or just plain old Tony Orlando and Dawn?
Ultimately, your money, your call, but I need to know that stuff to advise with any degree of certainty of the outcome.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #6
Thanks Again! .. so..
This is a system update/upgrade for my 1999 Chevy suburban. It has never had any audio system upgrades. and when I bought it 5 years ago the rear door and rear headliner speakers seemed to both be malfunctioning. I figured a long time ago, it was a blown speaker, or busted radio and waited until I had the guts/money to tackle this as a project. The truck is primarily our "tow vehicle" for a travel trailer for my family of 5. the kids are 9, 6, and 3. and the long road trips to our destinations have been lack-luster and its been difficult to entertain everyone. I also wanted to update the system to accomodate things like bluetooth capabilities , rear view camera, apple carplay, and maybe a bit better sound while I was at it.
This led to me purchasing the KenwoodDMX809S along with a camera for my back plate, speakers, and a 10 inch Kicker Hideaway self powered sub enclosure. Double din is difficult but not impossible in this car, I purchased Metra sub-dash bezel that makes it possible. I had found while researching my truck that the rear speakers not working may have to do with a factory installed amp. I assumed that this amp was powering both sets of rear channel speakers. (rear door and rear headliner). this is why I purchased the Sony XMS400D. the price was right, it could fit withing the dash, and I figured it would hopefully solve the issue of the 4 speakers in the rear that weren't giving any sound.
Speakers are...
Front door - Infinity Reference REF607CF - 90W RMS - 3 ohm rating but comes with a "true 4 ohm impedance technology"
Rear door - Infinity Reference REF607F - 60W RMS - Also has "true 4 ohm impedance technology"
Rear Headliner - Kicker KSC4100 - 75W RMS - Impedance = 4 ohms
I also will be adding as previously mentioned a Kicker Hideaway Self powered sub under the middle row of seats.
after finally locating the factory amp, I was surprised to find that it was only amplifying the rear door speakers, and not all four rear outputs.
This is where I had to pivot to a new plan with what I had. I thought of the above "option A" but was underwhelmed by the prospect of under powering the front door speakers which are the most "power hungry", thats when I thought of "option B". but your response led me to dig deeper into the issues of 4 channel amp powering 6 channels.
I ended up finding that my 4 rear channel speakers if wired in parallel, would end up cutting the impedance down to 2, which would be too low for the amp. if I wired them in series the ohm rating would work, but I was sobered to the math of splitting the power in half for those speakers. this still is a possible option (wiring the 4 rear in "series")
and so ... basically just trying to cut my losses and not resort to purchasing a much more expensive amp , or a much larger, in size , amp... I am resorting to possibly, only running the front door and rear headliner speakers off the amp, from the RCA pre amps front and rear... and then the rear door speakers off of the kenwood unit, possibly even using the front channel wires to power them, thinking of entertaining the kids with movies via bluetooth ipad connection.
ultimately I just want to have a sound system that works .. and with all that I listed, I spent less that 2 thousand, which feels like a win... If there was a compact amp super similar to my 4 chan that was 6 chan for only a little bit more, I would be all for it but I'm not finding one that meets the physical size and price point criteria...
and to answer the question about the type of audio I'll be listening to;
Rock classic all the way to alternative, Hip Hop early 90s, and my daughters' Pop choices , and bluetooth connected Ipad's playing movies on the long road trips.
I hope this is all the info you were looking for, and again, Thanks for taking the time to respond!
So, after looking at this very thoroughly, you're stuck.
You cannot drive all 6 speakers reasonably well, not at all really, unless you do things that will be absolutely pointless, like running the rear R/L doors and rear effects speakers in series so that you do not burn up the amp.
A little info on what Infinity refers to as their "true 4 ohm impedance technology": it's not really, and it assumes specific installation criteria that aren't in play here.
Infinity states that it's using a 2-3 ohm coil, and when it's used in conjunction with higher-resistance OEM speaker wires (usually 20-22 AWG), it's technically showing the amp a 4-ohm load, almost true but not applicable here.
Almost true but not really.
That said, the Sony amp is small, and it's also limited in how you can use it here.
You have very good components up front and good coaxial drivers in the rear doors, and the effects speakers in the headliner; let's talk about those first.
If you can return them, do, and here is why.
They can't be in play with the current amplifier, and even if you could, I would still avoid using them. They are decent, but they are not great; regardless of brand, it's just the limitations of the cone and tweeter in this particular speaker.
You have some good-quality polypropylene cones on the Infinity drivers that are uniform in shape, giving them a significant edge over the polypropylene 4x10s in the midrange frequencies, over the 4x10s, which are almost impossible to make where the cone is uniformly the same stiffness at all points, just not possible at $90 a pair. - and not practical if the retail on a perfectly uniform 4x10 cone retailed for $350 a pair; not enough market share to justify such a product.
More significantly, the Kicker uses a fairly inexpensive, narrow (extra-wide dispersion) PEI dome tweeter, and I'm just not a fan - of most any PEI dome tweeters.
Tweeters, especially ones in the rear, need to be identical to the ones in front of them, or they pull the entire sound stage backwards due to their differences in the sound signature (characteristics, think metal versus paper) the two different materials, shape, and sizes exhibit (their timbre, not timber), which is very undesirable.
Now the death nail.
If you could use them, on 45 watts, the Infinity speakers have a sensitivity rating of 93db; the Kicker is rated at 88db.
Even though the rears should be almost inaudible compared to the fronts (the rear is for fill, not for stereo or sound quality imaging), that 5db differenc in output, plus a 1 ohm difference in resistance, well that amounts to about 6db or almost 66% less ouput from the 4x10s than either of the other two, might as well not be there on 45 watts, likley you won;t really even know theyre on, comparativley, especaiily when you consider your already spreading that power distibution all around a large cabin, underpowering the entire syste,m it's a net sum loss, zero gain and only marginally better than the stock system.
So here is what I recommend instead.
If you're willing to forgo the rear 4x10's, then send the Sony back and get one of these, on sale right now for $118.00.
At 3 ohms, which is what those Infinity speakers are, this amp will output approximately 115-125 watts x4, markedly better and cleaner than the Sony; it's a no-brainer, and it's about the same size.
Just run all four channels to each set of F/R front and rear speakers (using the passive crossovers with the front components).
If you insist on using all six speakers, get the Fosi amp and consider running a bi-amplified setup, in an active/passive configuration.
Using the head unit and a few of the different amp crossovers, you can run all six speakers and have RCA signal output for the subwoofer you're going to get.
It's a rather complicated setup, and it involves bandpassing and splitting four of the six RCA channels from the HU out so that you end up with 10 channels of RCA outputs, but it would be a rather impressive setup and not break the bank.
On that configuration, your front midbass would get about 125 watts per channel, and the rear door speakers would also get the same; the tweeters would get 45x2, and the rear 4x10s (now relegated to actual rear fill) would see about 45 watts but on a narrower bandwidth of 80 Hz to 4 kHz, perfect for acting as effects or rear fill speakers.
You cannot drive all 6 speakers reasonably well, not at all really, unless you do things that will be absolutely pointless, like running the rear R/L doors and rear effects speakers in series so that you do not burn up the amp.
A little info on what Infinity refers to as their "true 4 ohm impedance technology": it's not really, and it assumes specific installation criteria that aren't in play here.
Infinity states that it's using a 2-3 ohm coil, and when it's used in conjunction with higher-resistance OEM speaker wires (usually 20-22 AWG), it's technically showing the amp a 4-ohm load, almost true but not applicable here.
Almost true but not really.
That said, the Sony amp is small, and it's also limited in how you can use it here.
You have very good components up front and good coaxial drivers in the rear doors, and the effects speakers in the headliner; let's talk about those first.
If you can return them, do, and here is why.
They can't be in play with the current amplifier, and even if you could, I would still avoid using them. They are decent, but they are not great; regardless of brand, it's just the limitations of the cone and tweeter in this particular speaker.
You have some good-quality polypropylene cones on the Infinity drivers that are uniform in shape, giving them a significant edge over the polypropylene 4x10s in the midrange frequencies, over the 4x10s, which are almost impossible to make where the cone is uniformly the same stiffness at all points, just not possible at $90 a pair. - and not practical if the retail on a perfectly uniform 4x10 cone retailed for $350 a pair; not enough market share to justify such a product.
More significantly, the Kicker uses a fairly inexpensive, narrow (extra-wide dispersion) PEI dome tweeter, and I'm just not a fan - of most any PEI dome tweeters.
Tweeters, especially ones in the rear, need to be identical to the ones in front of them, or they pull the entire sound stage backwards due to their differences in the sound signature (characteristics, think metal versus paper) the two different materials, shape, and sizes exhibit (their timbre, not timber), which is very undesirable.
Now the death nail.
If you could use them, on 45 watts, the Infinity speakers have a sensitivity rating of 93db; the Kicker is rated at 88db.
Even though the rears should be almost inaudible compared to the fronts (the rear is for fill, not for stereo or sound quality imaging), that 5db differenc in output, plus a 1 ohm difference in resistance, well that amounts to about 6db or almost 66% less ouput from the 4x10s than either of the other two, might as well not be there on 45 watts, likley you won;t really even know theyre on, comparativley, especaiily when you consider your already spreading that power distibution all around a large cabin, underpowering the entire syste,m it's a net sum loss, zero gain and only marginally better than the stock system.
So here is what I recommend instead.
If you're willing to forgo the rear 4x10's, then send the Sony back and get one of these, on sale right now for $118.00.
At 3 ohms, which is what those Infinity speakers are, this amp will output approximately 115-125 watts x4, markedly better and cleaner than the Sony; it's a no-brainer, and it's about the same size.
Just run all four channels to each set of F/R front and rear speakers (using the passive crossovers with the front components).
If you insist on using all six speakers, get the Fosi amp and consider running a bi-amplified setup, in an active/passive configuration.
Using the head unit and a few of the different amp crossovers, you can run all six speakers and have RCA signal output for the subwoofer you're going to get.
It's a rather complicated setup, and it involves bandpassing and splitting four of the six RCA channels from the HU out so that you end up with 10 channels of RCA outputs, but it would be a rather impressive setup and not break the bank.
On that configuration, your front midbass would get about 125 watts per channel, and the rear door speakers would also get the same; the tweeters would get 45x2, and the rear 4x10s (now relegated to actual rear fill) would see about 45 watts but on a narrower bandwidth of 80 Hz to 4 kHz, perfect for acting as effects or rear fill speakers.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #9
Alright... I'll admit, I had to do some research to really understand what you meant in the last "complicated" setup ... but I took the bait! ... the deal on the amp was going away in a few hours so I pulled the trigger.
One new concern now is, because the Fosi is pushing more power, I think it would be best to run new lower gauge speaker wire to (at least) the two pairs they will power. I'm assuming 16 AWG? The rear head liners getting 45W each I think could still run off of the OEM wire, and the tweeters in the front door as well.. do I understand that the tweeters should still run through the Infinity crossover box to protect them?
I am also now going to have to use different power lines to the now three different amps... Originally I thought Id just run the two separately rather than getting fancy and using a distributor block.
is this overkill? it was an AI recommendation...
[ 4-Gauge Main Power Wire From Battery ]
│
[ Inline Main Fuse ] (100Amp?)
│
[ Fused Distribution Block ]
/ │ \
/ │ \
[ 8-Gauge Wire ] [ 8-Gauge Wire ] [ 10-Gauge Wire ]
│ │ │
[ Fosi CA30 ] [ Sony XM-S400D ] [ Kicker HS10 Sub ]
Any recommendations for what type of RCA splitters to use?
should I consider upgrading the alternator now?
Thanks for helping me tune this setup in ... I have my work cut out for me...
I think you're now on the path to a rewarding experience, something you'll want to listen to.
First, no alternator upgrade is needed, not so far as I can determine without knowing the subwoofer you're considering, powered under the seat unit?
What subwoofer did you have in mind?
Let me know, but not thinking unless it's going to exceed 1200-1500 watts for the sub, that you'll need to upgrade any of the electrical.
As for the other, I'll actually draw up the wiring diagram for the HU to the amps, and for the power distribution, etc., once I know what the subwoofer is.
First, no alternator upgrade is needed, not so far as I can determine without knowing the subwoofer you're considering, powered under the seat unit?
What subwoofer did you have in mind?
Let me know, but not thinking unless it's going to exceed 1200-1500 watts for the sub, that you'll need to upgrade any of the electrical.
As for the other, I'll actually draw up the wiring diagram for the HU to the amps, and for the power distribution, etc., once I know what the subwoofer is.
- Thread Starter
- #11
I have the Kicker 51HS10 I believe it has a 180W amp.
Okay, if you already have it, I can draw up the configuration to use it and to add another down the road should you want to add additional low-end.
Here is an option on a shallow 12" NVX powered by a 350-watt amp. Cat touch it on the market for $179.00. You could actually get two of them for about the same price as the single Kicker.
Dual 12s, well, just night and day better.
A single or two of the kicker subs, one or two of the NVX subs, should not require an alternator upgrade.
Let me know if the kicker is what you're sticking with, and I'll get started on the wiring for the system, inc. wire gauge, distribution, head unit to the amps, etc., and I'll keep the expense to a minimum- the best bang for the buck and for the job without compromising the effort or results.
Here is an option on a shallow 12" NVX powered by a 350-watt amp. Cat touch it on the market for $179.00. You could actually get two of them for about the same price as the single Kicker.
Dual 12s, well, just night and day better.
A single or two of the kicker subs, one or two of the NVX subs, should not require an alternator upgrade.
Let me know if the kicker is what you're sticking with, and I'll get started on the wiring for the system, inc. wire gauge, distribution, head unit to the amps, etc., and I'll keep the expense to a minimum- the best bang for the buck and for the job without compromising the effort or results.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #14
Hey! thanks... I was out with the family... yes I am fairly committed to the kicker, I have it in my possession and its size is perfect for under the middle bench seat ...
I like your thinking to leave room for maybe one more down the road.
That diagram leaves room (+/- terminals) to add another integrated subwoofer.
The head unit wiring is going to take me a day or two, but you'll need 4 "Y" splitters, and depending on the location of the amplifiers, a total of 10 channels (5 - left/right) RCAs, 4 for the front stage, 2 for the rear doors,, 2 for the rear 4x10s and a set for the subwoofer(s).
Here are some cables that are fairly inexpensive that I have had good luck with.
"Y" splitters:
2 sets of these:
1 of these (set of 6 (you need to find out the length you will need) and the extra two, just a bonus.
As for wiring kits, I'd recommend the following purchases, not the kits that have stuff you don't need.
pOWER:
FOR THE REST OF THE AMPS AFTER THE DISTRO.
For the 1/0, depending on the length, you may be able to use 4 AWG or 2 AWG; if it is quite long, preferably 1/0 gauge and only OFC, not CCA wire, none, zippo, nada.
HU to amp and all x-over settings coming in a day or two.
The head unit wiring is going to take me a day or two, but you'll need 4 "Y" splitters, and depending on the location of the amplifiers, a total of 10 channels (5 - left/right) RCAs, 4 for the front stage, 2 for the rear doors,, 2 for the rear 4x10s and a set for the subwoofer(s).
Here are some cables that are fairly inexpensive that I have had good luck with.
"Y" splitters:
2 sets of these:
1 of these (set of 6 (you need to find out the length you will need) and the extra two, just a bonus.
As for wiring kits, I'd recommend the following purchases, not the kits that have stuff you don't need.
pOWER:
Amazon.com: Conext Link 10 FT 1/0 AWG 0 GA Full Gauge Battery Power Cable Ground Wire Frost Blue OFC Copper : Electronics
Buy Conext Link 10 FT 1/0 AWG 0 GA Full Gauge Battery Power Cable Ground Wire Frost Blue OFC Copper: Power & Ground Cable - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
FOR THE REST OF THE AMPS AFTER THE DISTRO.
Amazon.com: Conext Link 15 FT 4 AWG GA Full Gauge Battery Power Cable Ground Wire Frost Blue OFC Copper : Electronics
Buy Conext Link 15 FT 4 AWG GA Full Gauge Battery Power Cable Ground Wire Frost Blue OFC Copper: Power & Ground Cable - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
Amazon.com: Conext Link 15 FT 4 AWG GA Full Gauge Battery Power Cable Ground Wire Frost Black OFC Copper : Electronics
Buy Conext Link 15 FT 4 AWG GA Full Gauge Battery Power Cable Ground Wire Frost Black OFC Copper: Power & Ground Cable - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
For the 1/0, depending on the length, you may be able to use 4 AWG or 2 AWG; if it is quite long, preferably 1/0 gauge and only OFC, not CCA wire, none, zippo, nada.
HU to amp and all x-over settings coming in a day or two.
Activity
No one is currently typing a reply...
Similar threads
- Started by mr roo
- Subwoofers
- Started by Jdog4006
- General Car Audio
About this thread
New threads
-
-
For Sale Diamond Audio Motorsport Series 6 Inch Component Speakers- Started by PJayR
- Replies: 8
-
For Sale Vintage Eclipse Audio 4022R Head Unit w/ EQ & 6 Disc Changer
- Started by PJayR
- Replies: 1
-
-
-