Ethical traders Vs Scamming pondscum traders

Prowler573
5,000+ posts

R.I.P. Gossamer!!
I have dedicated much thinking here of late about the scamming that has gotten such "Front & Center" attention recently on our forum. ConcernedMember has an interesting posting signature containing some sound advice in this regard and several of our moderators have seen fit to take various steps to eliminate some members with known abhorrant trading practices as well as attempt to minimize the occurrence of future scammers. These steps include (but are not limited to) several threads that hopefully will be both read and comprehended by everyone as well as enacting new rules governing thread creation and posting in the different Classifieds subforums. (see the stickied threads in the Classifieds for further details)

A random sampling (well, not really random at all...I just took the first twenty) of threads in the Buyer/Seller Feedback section reveals sixteen of the twenty threads used for this exceedingly unorthodox research to be traders on one side or the other of a transaction who were pleased with the results of their trade(s). This tells us two things: (1) There are some people who are inable to make negative trader feedback threads in the correct subforum. And (2) That equates to 80% or 8 of every 10. While not a horrible number it certainly leaves room for improvement.

The bottom line here is that what that tells us is that there are many more reputable traders who have solid selling practices to be found in this kind of setting than there are those who are just looking for a victim. A small amount of diligence on the part of the prospective buyer can help us improve that percentage considerably. Dont be a victim!!! So, I have decided to attempt to impart some basic guidelines for people contemplating a trade of any kind with someone from this forum or any other online person-to-person trade.

I know these guidelines to work from personal experience. I'm a bit of an addict on eBay and the only thing that keeps me from spending much more money there than I already do is the simple lack of discretionary funds to blow. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I have yet to get scammed once on eBay or elsewhere and I genuinely feel this is due, in large part, to me being a stickler for certain things. If in any way a trade doesn't meet with the criteria that I require? Then I move on to the next deal. I'm sure over the long haul I have missed some if not many really outstanding deals. Fine. So be it. I would prefer to occasionally miss a great deal than have someone rip me off even once, wouldn't you?

Here we go ~ please excuse yet another of my overlong, uber-wordy posts. This one is for good reason, I promise. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

1) Know your seller

Find out as much as you possibly can about the person you are considering making a purchase from. Doing business of this nature online isn't nearly the same as buying from the fella down the block who isn't incredibly (impossibly) inconvenient to go talk with if the item isn't all it is cracked up to be. If the trade you involve yourself in, whether it be borne from a post on www.CarAudio.com or elsewhere, fails to be what it is advertised to be your available avenues of recourse after the fact are considerably limited in comparison to buying from a local B&M store or something akin to that. Remember and believe what your grandmother likely told you more than once as you were growing up: "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure." Sage advice, indeed.

Check their feedback. Talk to their previous trading partners to see how their experience with your potential seller ended up. If possible have a look at the kinds of things the seller has sold in the past. If someone has a history of selling $10, $15, or $30 items and all of a sudden they pop up wanting to move something that goes for $1,500 or more that could be good reason for a red flag to go up in the back of your mind. (Not all the time, mind you, but it would be good reason to be cautious at the very least)

Also research not only the feedback that has been left for your seller have a look at the feedback left by your seller. The things someone has to say about the people that have bought from them can be very telling about how they choose to conduct theirselves during a trade. If there are instances of negative feedback have a look at how the seller responded to said negatives and what, if any, resolution was reached ultimately. People are people. One of the unavoidable foibles of the human condition is an inability to please every person every time. Eventually one will run across someone who wants to whine and complain regardless of there being any actual fault that can be attributed to the seller. How situations such as this are responded to/resolved can also be very indicative of a person's true character. Hopefully you are getting the idea that doing as much homework on your seller as is possible can make huge inroads towards avoiding getting ripped off. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

2) Do not be afraid to ask questions.

If there is anything about any given item that you are not completely sure about then ask! Ask 1 question. Ask 10. Ask 100. No, I am not suggesting that you be a nuisance and make the seller want to block your communications but as well do not be afraid to ask as many questions are necessary for you to completely understand what it is you're trying to buy. If your seller is legit and genuinely wants to make a sale they will be happy to give over any information they may have. An ethical seller wants the buyer to be as much or more happy than the seller once the trade is done. No matter how good a deal may be on paper if the item isn't something that truly fills the buyer's needs then ultimately they will still be unhappy. Ask as many questions as you feel are needed to ensure that what you're buying will do what you need done.

Bear in mind that if you do feel you need some questions answered regarding any given item(s) and your seller isn't forthcoming with the information then that should be a huge red flag to you and chances are it isn't a deal that you want to involve yourself in. Think: jeremyzach and the Viper monoblock amp he sold here on the forum. He repeatedly dodged requests for pictures of the amp he was selling. The buyer went ahead and proceeded with the purchase and eventually, upon taking receipt of the amp he had purchased, became exceedingly unhappy with the deal. Yes, the amp worked so that was a plus, but cosmetically that poor old Viper had seen much better days. It was considerably less than what it had been advertised to be. It's your money, after all. Do not feel as if you are being an imposition wanting to know exactly what it is that you are spending it on. Again, an ethical seller will not take issue with you wanting clarification on any of the details. A shady trader will give you the runaround if you are asking questions that will expose their lack of honesty.

3) Know your item(s)

This is just as essential to a positive conclusion being reached in any given transaction. Once you find something (or several somethings) that strike your fancy / suit your needs / whatever the motivation to make that purchase may be do all the research on that item or items that you can. Find out what it sold for new. Find out what its relative worth is now if it's a used item. Feeling as if you got a good (or at least decent) deal goes a long way to overall "transaction satisfaction." Be aware, however, that once the deal is sealed and/or finished your window of opportunity to complain about the price has long since been closed. Do not agree/commit to buying X item at the total cost of Y dollars and then later down the road complain that "But I found it for THIS amount over on so-n-so source ~ why did you rip me off?!?" If you initially agree to making a purchase at any price then at least in that moment in time you felt the cost of admission was fair. Please do not make your seller the victim of Buyer's Remorse once the deal is done. It isn't that seller's fault if you are a compulsive impulse shopper. Do not treat him or her like it is after the fact.

4) Use common sense and trust your gut

C'mon, guys and gals....this is the practice of free enterprise and open commerce, not quantum physics! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has water rolling down its back? Chances are it's a duck. On the flipside of that same coin, however, regardless of how trite it may be the old adage "If it looks/sounds too good to be true then most likely it is" still holds true.

If someone with no known history on the forum pops up with a JL 1000/1 for $200 but they have no references on here or any other forum, no eBay feedback, or provides no pictures of the amp to indicate that they actually have one in their possession then most likely it is going to be a really bad idea to send that person your $200. On the other hand if you need some wiring or related accessories then you can feel safe buying from FRITO. If you need a decent deal on an entry-level USAmps then flakko's your man. Looking for a Rainbow component set? Have a quick chat with 6spdcoupe. My point is that there are regular participants on the forum that you could safely place blind faith in and not get screwed over. Other instances should be evaluated on a case by case basis and see what your gut tells you. Remember what I said previously ~ I would rather miss out on a good deal several times than get completely ripped off even once. Wouldn't you???

/rant.

 
ss3079~ Thanks for moving this to an apprpriate place. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/thumbsup.gif.3287b36ca96645a13a43aff531f37f02.gif

Bimma,

You're always such a naysayer when anything touching on this topic comes up. Why is that? Have you been burned incredibly bad and consequently harbor some unresolved bitterness about online trading in general? I have made no claims that my thread contains the "Be All, End All" method of keeping yourself from getting scammed. It is, however, some common sense information that potentially hasn't occurred to some as of yet for various reasons. It is garnered from my own personal online experiences, a good bit of time spent on the eBay discussion boards, and a few other resources that serve me well in my goings-on day to day on the interweb.

Nothing you do will prove to be a perfect system and I am happy to both recognize and admit that. That doesn't mean since we cannot eliminate scammers altogether that we shouldn't make efforts to minimize their being successful as much as we possibly can ~ both on an individual basis as well as together as a group. It is to that latter end that my efforts in this thread are focused.

So, to respond to your post:

True and true. Let me reiterate ~ these tips are in no way meant to get rid of scamming altogether but if it in any way reduces the chances of it? Then I, for one, am all for it. Why wouldn't you be? Please don't come at me with that tired story about being an inconvenience for an honest seller. I've already trounced that soundly in the mud. An extra minute or two (literally) at the outside is no inconvenience if it helps you to make that sale. /story

Paranoia, in limited amounts, can serve a person well. In the inordinately large amounts with which you are apparently afflicted, however, it makes for a dismal existence. Everyone has to start somewhere, bimma. Once you had Zero feedback on eBay. Think back to that very first transaction on eBay ~ did the feedback you left for your trading partner become inconsequential because you had none yourself? That is lunacy, dude. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else. Mine is that your point of view in that regard is more than a bit silly.

Yes, dishonest things happen on eBay. They happen here. They happen everywhere. The underlying point is that the transactions that end positively far outweigh the number of bad deals here and elsewhere. The bad ones simply get better press because those are the ones that shouldn't have happened. In large part no one really pays any attention to those deals that conclude as they should have.

This bit I agree with completely.

If your grandma didn't tell you that at some point then she's among the minority of grandmothers, I'd say. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif And thank you. I know this isn't going to stop anything completely - but if anything I've said helps someone to keep from getting screwed even once then I have accomplished my goal. Maybe something I've posted will help someone, at least once, to having to learn the hard way.

Nope, it isn't. It only took me burning my hand once to learn not to reach up on the stove when that knob on the front of it was turned at an odd angle. Others take a few more times before they get it...
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif, not trying to say anything you said was wrong, just putting in my 2 cents by adding to it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

I've gotten scammed on ebay for $40 from a power seller with 2k+ feedback. Also buying import dvds, before they were out here, cost me about $200. The others I had ordered previously made me about $1500, so oh well. Could give two shits about either incident.

Those are just my steps. I can get dam near anything I want wayyy cheaper in person than ebay anyways, so I don't buy much online now adays //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif.

Yes, I'm way too paranoid......oh well. Buy 2 things for cheap and get scammed on the 3, doesnt make the other 2 that cheap. I just put what I do, no one has to listen or do anything they say....doesnt mean I still shouldnt say it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

Foolish, think what you want. I'm not gonna get scammed by some 6 feedback having scammer(no i'm not saying e1 with 6 feedback is a scammer so dont go there)...period. I'd rather deal with people who sell more than just 1 item a year on line.

Everyone starts somewhere sure....they're just not gonna start their ebay history off with me(unless they're buying). If you think thats crazy....then so be it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif.

As for some of the rest, I said nice thread. Never said, that you said nor implied this would end all scamming etc //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Just read some more, bitternesss towards online trading/sales. Since soon most of income will be from online sales....no I don't say I hold anything against it.

Just read more, where did I say a single thing about taking pics be annoying in my post? I DIDNT. You're reading into **** wayyyy too much. Did I say I have a perfect system, NO. I'll admit that to //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

on a side note, hope that makes sense...just woke up from a nap

 
I have been thinking alot here of late about the scamming that has gotten such "Front & Center" attention recently on our forum.
Good stuff Prowler...thanks for putting that together. Joke ---> But for someone that is so well spoken I would think you would know the difference between alot and a lot //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
not trying to say anything you said was wrong, just putting in my 2 cents by adding to it
I've gotten scammed on ebay for $40 from a power seller with 2k+ feedback. Also buying import dvds, before they were out here, cost me about $200. The others I had ordered previously made me about $1500, so oh well. Could give two shits about either incident.

Those are just my steps. I can get dam near anything I want wayyy cheaper in person than ebay anyways, so I don't buy much online now adays

Yes, I'm way too paranoid......oh well. Buy 2 things for cheap and get scammed on the 3, doesnt make the other 2 that cheap. I just put what I do, no one has to listen or do anything they say....doesnt mean I still shouldnt say it

Foolish, think what you want. I'm not gonna get scammed by some 6 feedback having scammer(no i'm not saying e1 with 6 feedback is a scammer so dont go there)...period. I'd rather deal with people who sell more than just 1 item a year on line.

Everyone starts somewhere sure....they're just not gonna start their ebay history off with me(unless they're buying). If you think thats crazy....then so be it

As for some of the rest, I said nice thread. Never said, that you said nor implied this would end all scamming etc

Just read some more, bitternesss towards online trading/sales. Since soon most of income will be from online sales....no I don't say I hold anything against it.
That explains much, my friend. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Just read more, where did I say a single thing about taking pics be annoying in my post? I DIDNT. You're reading into **** wayyyy too much. Did I say I have a perfect system, NO. I'll admit that to
In another thread wherein someone asked should pics be a requirement for any and all FS threads you and I were definitively on either side of the fence from one another where I believed it to be a worthwhile requirement and you felt it (a) would make no difference whatsoever and (b) was an unnecessary hardship on the seller. I figured you would bring those same arguments to bear here as well. Sorry for the mistaken assumption if that is the case. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Good stuff Prowler...thanks for putting that together. Joke ---> But for someone that is so well spoken I would think you would know the difference between alot and a lot //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Good catch. Corrections implemented. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
 
great tips, no scammage yet for me but i do sometimes forget to get a real good idea of what prices should be(kinda hard for my to figure out and don't want to make thread everytime i am in market for something).

 
great tips, no scammage yet for me but i do sometimes forget to get a real good idea of what prices should be(kinda hard for my to figure out and don't want to make thread everytime i am in market for something).
You have internet access obviously so it should not be difficult at all to have a look around and get a good feel of what fair market value is for something.
eBay is a great resource for this ~

Do a search on eBay but rather than looking for any given item and how many instances you can find that are available now use the Advanced Search features and look for the item in question in completed listings. eBay's search function will only show you those completed listings from the past 30 days but that will give you an idea of what other people found the item you are researching to have been worth for them over the last month. Eliminate those listings that went without a winning bidder and just take a quick average of the Final Item Values from those listings that did end with a winning bid.

Outside of that there are other places to look to be able to get a feel for what any certain item might be worth used but looking at what other people have been willing to pay on eBay over the last month is a great place to start. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
Great guidelines prowler!

Hopefully this will help cut down on some scamming here, which has been part of my downfall in buying from this forum as of lately.

Something smells wrong about it (either the price is too cheap, or the whole deal is suspicious to me), but sometimes those can be the really nice deals, that you catch before anyone else does too.

Good luck, and once again, great job of putting it all together.

 
You have internet access obviously so it should not be difficult at all to have a look around and get a good feel of what failr market value is for something.
eBay is a great resource for this ~

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
i usually check ebay, but like my last amp(jl e2150) there weren't any listings for one on there. i figured out to start looking at the completed listings so now no prob.

 
Great guidelines prowler!
Hopefully this will help cut down on some scamming here, which has been part of my downfall in buying from this forum as of lately.

Something smells wrong about it (either the price is too cheap, or the whole deal is suspicious to me), but sometimes those can be the really nice deals, that you catch before anyone else does too.

Good luck, and once again, great job of putting it all together.
Thank you and thank you.

You're right. Sometimes you can fall upon something that is a really good deal that somehow it escaped the attention of the rest of the vultures but more often than not those deals get under the radar because of a listing error on the part of the seller. Like the item's title was spelled wrong. It was listed in the wrong category. There is little to no item description because the seller doesn't know what they have. Things like that which are pretty obvious which are the scams and which are flawed auctions b/c the seller is uninformed. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 
snb778, learn to close your tags properly, please. If you've never read one then by your own admission you're only here in this thread to post whore. Please see your way clear of continuing to do so or I will report the posts. It would appear ^^^^^ that I have moderator cooperation in keeping this thread clean. Thank you for understanding.

Would it be possible to maybe automatically stick this as a link in every for sale ad?People dont read the stickys.......as an example, view the recent group buy thread- most people were unaware that group buys were not allowed.

Just an idea.
I don't know that I would agree to this having to be linked to in every FS thread. I might link to it in every one of my FS threads as I think it is worth reading and it is my thread. But requiring everyone else to link to it as well I cannot see as being reasonable.

Oh...and to no one reads the stickies? The viewcount vs. the actual posts would suggest otherwise. Besides...you were in here long enough to read then post. Are you PWing as well? As to the group buy thing it has been disallowed for longer than I have been registered here. It is only here of late that it has been strictly enforced, wouldn't you say?

 
I understand... Im not here to post ***** though. I honestly dont even know where the stickies are

sorry for the tag. Tried to delete part of a quote, i dunno how it did that. i thought I just deleted text.

 
I think we need an optional service when selling/buying. A middle man to hold the money with predetermined terms and conditions. Say for instance A is buying an amp from B for $300. B has been on the forum for a little while, but A is slightly concerned because he is putting up $300. B knows that he is a good man and true to his word, so he agrees with A to use the middle man service and pays a small fee (split by both parties). So before they use the service some guidelines are drawn out and the two agree to them. So finally B ships the amp to A and everything goes smooth. Middle man then sends B the money.

Scenario 2: There is a problem with shipping and B is making up excuses as to why the amp isn't there. A requests his money back and gets a full refund.

Scenario 3: The amp arrives to A and it is damaged. Because B provided pics of the amp before, the middle man follows the terms and conditions agreed upon

Scenario 4: The amp arrives to A and it does not work. Middle man follows terms and conditions agreed upon.

It would take sometime to get the system working properly where both individuals are 100% satisfied, but by researching all the possible problems with transactions in the past, I'm sure this service could cover just about every scenario that pops up.

 
I think it is an incredibly valid idea. In theory it sounds great, CM. Getting it implemented could prove problematic and getting both parties involved in any given trade to agree to a non-involved third party might be a bit of a task as well.

 
GREAT plan but execution would be nearly impossible, not to mention that the seller could claim that merchandise was not damaged upon shipping and try to make middle man look like scammer. Also middle man could really cause some chaos if decides to go scammer. I mean King was somebuddy that before he went south might have been taken into consideration for middle man.

 
GREAT plan but execution would be nearly impossible, not to mention that the seller could claim that merchandise was not damaged upon shipping and try to make middle man look like scammer. Also middle man could really cause some chaos if decides to go scammer. I mean King was somebuddy that before he went south might have been taken into consideration for middle man.
The only way the middleman could become a scammer is if they do not send the money to the proper recipient. Outside of that the middleman would never actually take possession of or have access to the gear being sold. There would be no way to attribute fault for the item(s) being in less-than-advertised condition to the 3rd party.

 
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Prowler573

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