**Focal.......................165V3E.............729.......................160
That doesn't sound right.... the V line is Polyglass, which is not as good as the polykevlar line nor the Utopia line. And the 3 way component polykevlars are rated at 100wrms. Unless 160 rms refers to the combined wattage of both channels. In any case, $729 is wayyyyyy too much for those. You should be able to get them for a few hundrer dollars less.
Titanus
That doesn't sound right.... the V line is Polyglass, which is not as good as the polykevlar line nor the Utopia line. And the 3 way component polykevlars are rated at 100wrms. Unless 160 rms refers to the combined wattage of both channels. In any case, $729 is wayyyyyy too much for those. You should be able to get them for a few hundrer dollars less.
Titanus
- Thread Starter
- #3
Thanks Titanus, i thought these power figures and prices were off. I know retail is almost always lower than the MSRP. The other fire is that the JL component set said it was rated at 90rms. Now the mag had tons of columns, but didnt say whether it was per SIDE, or total. (like you said, combined wattage) so im left to guess. Now JLs site says that their components can take up to a max of 150 watts. which meshes nicely with them having a 300/2 amp.
Bottom line is, I want some bass up front. and i dont want to sacrifice my rear fill.. even if it degrades my front soundstage.
Have you looked into the cdt's? You can get the HD's reasonable at the zeb and they sound awesome. You can get great midbass with a 2 way component set and a have a much easier install. If you want even more get 2 5.25" or 6.5" comp sets and mount one in the doors and the other in the kicks.
jemorgan85
10+ year member
SPL Tactician
- Thread Starter
- #6
you mean of course... to get a set of 6.5" woofers, and a set of 5.25" components with the tweeters?
a 2-way set and the pair of woofs, then install them in kicks and doors? Or did you mean two woofer/tweeter sets. the largest ill go to mount with the tweeters in the kickpanels is 5.25.
I meant 2 component sets, 4 woofers and 4 tweets. You could get more midbass from 2 component sets than a 3 way setup. Most 3 way set ups cross the 3"-4" mid at 400hz up so they dont help in the midbass range. You could put a 6.5 set in the doors and a 5.25 set in the kick panels and get much more midbass than a 3 way setup. Maybe mount the tweet from the 6.5 set in the A pillar to bring the soundstage up. I like the idea using 4 tweets instead of 2 with that much midbass/midrange. You would probably have to really overwork the 2 and boost the high frequencies to get them to blend well with 4 mids. I would much rather use 4 and cut them down some and get much cleaner smoother highs.
- Thread Starter
- #9
HMMmm. 6.5" woofer in the doors. 5.25 or 6.5" woofer in the kickpanel with a 1" tweeter. and another 1" tweet up a little higher ay?
how about in the dash somewhere? i got no airbags, its all hollow. I noticed i have this huge hole up where the roof meets my windshield, i could custom fab a lil pod and put one up there on each side of the car. or how about where the dash meets the windshield. I have room there too. Then use what... a 300/4 amp? or a 450/4.
Should i use any kind of signal processor for the components? Id like to boost the preout voltage if possible. 4v just seems weak compared to 8 or 16.
I would buy a high quality set (like the 2 way JL set or the CDT set) and then maybe add a 6" or 8" woofer in the kick panels on each side also if you want more midbass upfront. I would try to avoid using multiple component sets and mounting them all over (keep em in the kicks). You could use a JL 450/4 with the component set running of channels 1 and 2 and the mid basses running off 3 and 4.
Multiple components can be made to sound very good if the install is done right and you tune it properly. You will probably end up running one of the door speakers out of phase because of cancelation. Mount the tweets facing across the front of the windshield as low in the A pillar as possible. You will probably have to attenuate them 3bd or so. I have a similar setup in my car with 6.5 and 5.25's and the imaging and staging is dead on. Live cd's sound unbelievable and the bass sounds like it is in the front. You can use 6.5 or 8" midbasses in the kicks but they are a nightmare to make work unless you have a ton of room in the floorboard and behind the panel but will also sound great. As far as amp goes I would use the 450/4, its better to have headroom than barely enough power.
- Thread Starter
- #12
Cancellation from what speakers? the tweeters? if i have 2 sets of components up front. Tweet and a 6.5, tweet and a 5.25, each pair together has their own crossover, which i power with a 4channel amp right? I dont see how there would be cancellation. Just because there is 8 components? Could i use a line driver in this case?
My original idea was a 3 way component set. But my backup idea (because maybe i wanted bass drivers that had direct power from an amp.) was to get a 2 way component set, and buy a seperate set of 6.5" drivers. People have suggested that again and again, which makes the idea better every day.
So im looking into a set of 6.5" drivers. and a 5.25" or 6.5" component set.
But the question remains. 2 tweets or 4 tweets? I think Id enjoy 4 better.
So a set of 5.25" components, and a set of 6.5" components??
I didnt want to post yet until i got a picture of the front cabin of my car, specifically the passenger side. Just from my seat i can see theres alot of nice room and paneling to work with. The plastic piece where the kick would go can house a 6.5" easily.
My original idea was a 3 way component set. But my backup idea (because maybe i wanted bass drivers that had direct power from an amp.) was to get a 2 way component set, and buy a seperate set of 6.5" drivers. People have suggested that again and again, which makes the idea better every day.
So im looking into a set of 6.5" drivers. and a 5.25" or 6.5" component set.
But the question remains. 2 tweets or 4 tweets? I think Id enjoy 4 better.
So a set of 5.25" components, and a set of 6.5" components??
I didnt want to post yet until i got a picture of the front cabin of my car, specifically the passenger side. Just from my seat i can see theres alot of nice room and paneling to work with. The plastic piece where the kick would go can house a 6.5" easily.
The 6.5's in the door may have cancellation from being directly across from each other. You wont know until you get it hooked up and use a good test cd that uses a track that as been recorded in phase and out of phase. I use the IASCA judging cd and it has a track specifically for that and tracks for imaging, staging, and spl. A line driver is for boosting the voltage to the amp. Most amps have a 4v max input so if your head unit puts out 4v and you are only running one amp per output you shouldnt need one. But if you are running more than one amp per output with y connectors then it may help some by boosting the voltage so you can keep the gains down. I like the tweets in the A pillar because it helps raise the soundstage.
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
If you want it to sound its best, you DO NOT want multiple drivers on each side playing the same freqs. Midbasses facing each other has zero, zip, nada, niete, to do with cancellation. The pathlength from the speaker to your ear does. Unless you have the pathlengths perfectly equal physically or you use time correction for EVERY driver, you will end up with a peaky response. Also, cancellation does not occur at every frequency. Depending on pathlength and wavelength, some frequencies will have perfect cancellation and others will have perfect reinforcement. As you add more drivers at a given frequency, you create more different pathlengths that you have to deal with. This creates even more peaks and valleys in the response curve and the overall result is your speakers sound much worse than they potentially could. These phasing peaks and more importantly valleys, cannot be fixed with EQ either. If you create a cancellation valley in the response curve, you are pretty well stuck with it. As I hope you can tell by what I have said so far, the install is more important than the number of drivers when it comes to good frequency response.
If you want good midbass response there are a few key things that you must address. first you need a true midbass driver, not just a large midrange. Just because it is 6.5" doesn't mean that it has good low end extension. You want good usable output down to at least 80hz and lower is better. You don't really care about the response above 300-500 hz, you will let the midrange pick it up somewhere around there (exact frequency will depend on the install and the particular drivers). It should have pretty good excursion or be a larger driver like an 8" (it needs to move a good amount of air to produce enough volume to blend in well with the subs). Once you have found the driver that is going to do what you need, you need to figure out the best way to install it. Location is one part of the equation, but probably the more important for a midbass is the enclosure that you put it in. Just like your subs, your midbass drivers need to be properly enclosed for them to perform their best. You should design and build an enclosure for them based on their Theile/Small parameters and you can go either ported or sealed, just like with subs. If you are running large subs or they are ported and pretty loud, consider porting your midbasses as well to give them the extra output they need to keep up with the subs. Once you have figured out how and where to mount them you need to power them. If you are going with a JL amped system, the 450/4 will give you what you need, as you have already figured out. 150 per side should be plenty for most any setup. Tuning the setup is the last and most often overlooked step in getting the sound you want. The biggest concern with dividing the frequency range among multiple drivers per side is getting them to blend with each other to produce a smooth frequency response. This task is made a bit easier with the use of active crossovers with infinitely variable cutoff frequencies and multiple channels of amplification. The first step is to set the crossovers in the ballpark of where they will be in the end. You can guess a bit here. Set the low pass for the midbass and the highpass for the midrange at the same frequency to begin with, although they might be at slightly different frequencies when you are finished tuning. Next set the gains on the different amps to match the levels. Set the gains of each pair of channels normally first and then turn down the pair (midbass or mid/high) that are louder. An RTA can help with this step by showing you which is really louder. Next you want to adjust the crossover points for the smoothest response. By playing with the overlap or gap between the low- and high-pass sides of the crossover, you can do a lot to fill valleys in the response or tame peaks. Try adjusting the relative phase of the individual drivers as well, as this can make a big difference. Remember that just because the wire is labeled + doesn't mean that it will sound best connected to the + terminal on the speaker. We are dealing with AC, current flows both ways, there is no + or -. They switch every cycle. The labeling is just a reference, not a hard and fast rule. If you have done things right up to here, your system should sound excellent. You should have been able to address the worst of the irregularities in the response curve using just location, phase and crossover points. That is what makes a good install. You have given yourself a solid foundation for excellent sound quality. Small bumps and dips in the response can be smoothed from here with a little bit of EQ if you so desire, but for daily listening, it likely won't be required.
If you want good midbass response there are a few key things that you must address. first you need a true midbass driver, not just a large midrange. Just because it is 6.5" doesn't mean that it has good low end extension. You want good usable output down to at least 80hz and lower is better. You don't really care about the response above 300-500 hz, you will let the midrange pick it up somewhere around there (exact frequency will depend on the install and the particular drivers). It should have pretty good excursion or be a larger driver like an 8" (it needs to move a good amount of air to produce enough volume to blend in well with the subs). Once you have found the driver that is going to do what you need, you need to figure out the best way to install it. Location is one part of the equation, but probably the more important for a midbass is the enclosure that you put it in. Just like your subs, your midbass drivers need to be properly enclosed for them to perform their best. You should design and build an enclosure for them based on their Theile/Small parameters and you can go either ported or sealed, just like with subs. If you are running large subs or they are ported and pretty loud, consider porting your midbasses as well to give them the extra output they need to keep up with the subs. Once you have figured out how and where to mount them you need to power them. If you are going with a JL amped system, the 450/4 will give you what you need, as you have already figured out. 150 per side should be plenty for most any setup. Tuning the setup is the last and most often overlooked step in getting the sound you want. The biggest concern with dividing the frequency range among multiple drivers per side is getting them to blend with each other to produce a smooth frequency response. This task is made a bit easier with the use of active crossovers with infinitely variable cutoff frequencies and multiple channels of amplification. The first step is to set the crossovers in the ballpark of where they will be in the end. You can guess a bit here. Set the low pass for the midbass and the highpass for the midrange at the same frequency to begin with, although they might be at slightly different frequencies when you are finished tuning. Next set the gains on the different amps to match the levels. Set the gains of each pair of channels normally first and then turn down the pair (midbass or mid/high) that are louder. An RTA can help with this step by showing you which is really louder. Next you want to adjust the crossover points for the smoothest response. By playing with the overlap or gap between the low- and high-pass sides of the crossover, you can do a lot to fill valleys in the response or tame peaks. Try adjusting the relative phase of the individual drivers as well, as this can make a big difference. Remember that just because the wire is labeled + doesn't mean that it will sound best connected to the + terminal on the speaker. We are dealing with AC, current flows both ways, there is no + or -. They switch every cycle. The labeling is just a reference, not a hard and fast rule. If you have done things right up to here, your system should sound excellent. You should have been able to address the worst of the irregularities in the response curve using just location, phase and crossover points. That is what makes a good install. You have given yourself a solid foundation for excellent sound quality. Small bumps and dips in the response can be smoothed from here with a little bit of EQ if you so desire, but for daily listening, it likely won't be required.
- Thread Starter
- #15
I knew there was something else huge and major.
Thanks Helotaxi.
yikes how to sift through that...
Umm, so my first task would be to select the correct mid-bass drivers. *im lost* I'm pretty sure i cannot fit 8" drivers in my doors. 6.5" would fit nicely, and my door cannot fit the product factory grills unless i redo my whole lower door. Sooo... i dont have very many options. Mounting tweeters here and there, i think i have leeway for that.
All these peaks and rises give me a headache lol, i think i understand what you mean though. I had thought about porting the 6.5" midbase's... got the idea looking at the baffles in the thread "newbies guide to custom kickpanels" though i wondered how id do it. How would i make a port for it? So if i were to buy a set of 5.25" components, i would have to tune both the driver and the tweeter? down in my kickpanels?? I dont have all the equipment to test frequencies and stuff. a tuning CD i can buy.. but any additional costs in my plans at this point would be too much. As it is, my equipment cost rivals the customization/installation costs.
I DO want all my stuff bolted down. i dont want loose speakers installed in my doors that were just screwed in by the local audio guy. hell i can do that myself. Now designing pods or something for the drivers, in the doors. thats something i would consider. But i need details, i have no idea how to do that, i mean, i have an idea... but i need to first find out if it will interfere with anything in my door.
Im about ready to start purchasing all my wiring and such.. I want to get my car re and pre-wired for my future installs at the same time i get my radio installed. How much I/0, 4ga, 8ga and so on should i use? Helotaxi you pretty much know my setup right?
Thanks Helotaxi.
yikes how to sift through that...
Umm, so my first task would be to select the correct mid-bass drivers. *im lost* I'm pretty sure i cannot fit 8" drivers in my doors. 6.5" would fit nicely, and my door cannot fit the product factory grills unless i redo my whole lower door. Sooo... i dont have very many options. Mounting tweeters here and there, i think i have leeway for that.
All these peaks and rises give me a headache lol, i think i understand what you mean though. I had thought about porting the 6.5" midbase's... got the idea looking at the baffles in the thread "newbies guide to custom kickpanels" though i wondered how id do it. How would i make a port for it? So if i were to buy a set of 5.25" components, i would have to tune both the driver and the tweeter? down in my kickpanels?? I dont have all the equipment to test frequencies and stuff. a tuning CD i can buy.. but any additional costs in my plans at this point would be too much. As it is, my equipment cost rivals the customization/installation costs.
I DO want all my stuff bolted down. i dont want loose speakers installed in my doors that were just screwed in by the local audio guy. hell i can do that myself. Now designing pods or something for the drivers, in the doors. thats something i would consider. But i need details, i have no idea how to do that, i mean, i have an idea... but i need to first find out if it will interfere with anything in my door.
Im about ready to start purchasing all my wiring and such.. I want to get my car re and pre-wired for my future installs at the same time i get my radio installed. How much I/0, 4ga, 8ga and so on should i use? Helotaxi you pretty much know my setup right?
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