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So Low iT Hz

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About So Low iT Hz

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    Member
  • Birthday 02/26/1985

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  • Location
    CT
  • Audio System Setup
    Two BtLN212D2s on 5k rms, 14V XS Power batteries and Mechman 270
  1. So Low iT Hz

    Best single 15" setup? ?

    Sundown Zv3 15, it loves being in a smaller box compared to other 15s
  2. So Low iT Hz

    Mature Amp Advice

    Excellent recommendation. Just get this amplifier, crescendo is one of the most reputable brands there is, and they have a minimal profit margin compared to other companies and are willing to let you save a few bucks for really nice equipment. Look into their speaker lines as well as their batteries, but they are best known for their rock solid amplifiers. I ran a bc5500 at .35 ohms on only two smallish batteries (big alt tho) and it kept up with every note. Never got hot
  3. So Low iT Hz

    How do I replace an already mounted AMP?

    Make sure the gauge of the power cable you are running is appropriate for the new amp you are planning to use. For example if are going from a 400 watt amp, to a 1500 watt amplifier, you may need to upgrade wire and/or increase your electrical support. Also make sure the speaker load is equally appropriate for the new amp you are going to use. Do these following steps of you are simply swapping for a similar power/type of amplifier. Remove negative connection to battery! To be safe I would remove the main fuse in the power wire after that. Then remove RCA s, remove speaker wires, remove ground cable to amp, remove remote wire, and remove positive power cable. Un mount amplifier, mount new amplifier, connect positive power cable, connect remote wire, connect ground cable, connect speaker wires (again assuming same ohm load), and connect RCAs. Adjust gain knob and crossovers to the appropriate levels to ensure clean signal processing. Reinstall main power fuse and recheck all connections for stray copper or anything that doesn't look like a solid, clean connection. One you're 100% sure everything checks out reconnect the main ground to your battery and fire her up. If you have any doubts that you can easily perform any of those steps have somebody that knows what they're doing show you how.
  4. So Low iT Hz

    sundown audio ns v3

    Both those are probably seeing around 12-1500 watts each after rise and barely moving. Looks to me like you can dump plenty of power into these. I want some now
  5. Is that a port? I assume that is a sealed enclosure there, and I'd probably recommend running two beefy 8s sealed in that little space. But if you want to know which 10s have good performance in small sealed boxes and have less than 4.88 inches of mounting depth inverted I'd say sundown SD-10s all the way. Though again the SD-8s would probably even better if you could find a way to secure a 8" inner diameter ring into there without sacrificing more mounting space.
  6. So Low iT Hz

    Sundown e-series 12" subs vs SA-15 difference?

    The SA12 is an epic driver. Not the 10, or the 15, the 12. It's everything most people want in a subwoofer, even at lower (than rated) power levels. One of my personal favorites and I can promise you won't regret investing in some.
  7. So Low iT Hz

    Sundown e-series 12" subs vs SA-15 difference?

    The 12s will be better. The SA15 is notorious for needing a lot of airspace to operate, and honestly wouldn't be my first choice for a 15" driver. Stick with the 12s, because the box size will be similar but with more cone area (louder) and more voice coil surface area to dissipate the power. And with the correct enclosure the two 12s will play just as low as the SA. If you were willing to switch to two SA12s I would definitely recommend that swap.
  8. So Low iT Hz

    Power wire fuse keeps blowing...

    Don't use a bigger fuse. That's not the problem. Something is shorting (obviously) either inside the amp or outside. If the amp is that old I would just pull the back cover off and look inside, the blue gel is usually capacitor related, so I'd be looking for some blown caps in the power supply section. The slash series amps have weird locations for the power supply and signal sections so I can't tell you off hand where to look. But I wouldn't just keep throwing more fuse at it unless you want your car on fire
  9. So Low iT Hz

    Need a new subwoofer

    SA-12. Theres no competition when looking at other 12s. Ppl who know good woofers know SA12s (not 10s or especially not 15s) are a superior woofer compared to other 12s
  10. Any woofer you can find with a low BPF (Fs/Qes) that has a lower Vas than the next driver. I've had great luck with JL W6s in RDO IB, Rockford punch p3s IB, and even Dayton subs. If I can have good results with these I'm sure you can find a higher quality driver to suit your needs. If you're looking for an actual IB woofer try the Fi IB3. (does Fi have a website? :P)
  11. So Low iT Hz

    So Many Choices

    Context indeed lol. I think we are misunderstanding each other, because I'm not talking music. I'm talking SPL. Burps and stuff. I agree 100% that music requires good Xmax, but what I consider SPL has no connection to music. Or even to "sounding loud" for that matter. I apologize, as my argument was that for an SPL competitor, XMAX is rarely the spec that matters most between one driver and other to produce higher SPL. But music or "loudness" is a totally different ball game.
  12. So Low iT Hz

    So Many Choices

    Started a new thread. It's just one of many myths that "seem" like they make sense but in reality have little basis for truth. By no means am I calling out any individual here, it's hard to see through the fog of misconceptions that are propagated into popularity. But I will say 100% that a driver with greater typically plays better musically compared to a driver with lower throw. But SPL level is different.
  13. So Low iT Hz

    Subwoofer myths exposed

    #14 It’s a bigger driver, then I need a bigger amp Often times larger drivers require less amplification, that’s sort of the idea. The concept of bigger woofers need more power is not always true and plays right into the ever progressing misconception of car audio. What you should consider is the efficiency of the subwoofer. Efficiency will literally tell you how much acoustic output you will get given an amount of power (assuming linear limits of course). If the driver is bigger, has a larger motor and has a higher sensitivity, there is no mystery about it, you are going to get more SPL with the same amplifier provided the impedance is similar and the amplifier can produce high voltage at impedance peaks when the driver naturally draws very little current for a narrow range. If a driver is more efficient and has a larger voice coil, well you just got your cake and you can now eat it. Not only will it be louder, but it will have less thermal compression and ultimately more sound provided all else is equal (but such is not usually not the case). It’s often difficult to make voice coils larger and increase sensitivity too. This usually requires very large motors and expense. Sensitivity is most easily achieved by weight reduction usually from the cone surround and voice coil. Sensitivity is often a trade off of xmax and thermal compression limits. However there are many larger drivers that don’t have ultra high sensitivity. A good pro audio subwoofer may have 6 to 10dB higher sensitivity over an average high excursion car audio subwoofer. That advantage makes them very capable with quite a bit less power at least for their frequency range which is usually above 40Hz. Likewise, SPL drivers ironically enough don’t need much power either! Let me repeat. True SPL drivers ironically enough don’t need much power! That’s because they are used in the higher frequency domain not limited by displacement and generally have great sensitivity numbers. They need this in order to get the excursion and ultimately SPL they need to win contests. High sensitivity and lots of power means lots of SPL provided the driver is still reasonably linear and does not physically break of course. Note: Strictly for SPL contest, drivers are normally burped at Fc (system resonance) which is the point of maximum current draw and minimum active driver displacement which is why excessive power must be used. Do not confuse that requirement with the much lower power requirements for sound reproduction outside that single SPL frequency. It’s important you know the TSP’s of the driver you buy, otherwise it could be the wrong driver for you! Who buys a car without knowing the horsepower? Just because a driver big and the manufacture claims pie in the sky RMS numbers doesn’t mean a thing! #15 Neodymium will lose its strength with heat Of course it will, and so will ceramic motors too, but the fact is, under even extreme operating conditions, it’s not likely the motor will ever reach these temperatures. There is just too much steel to absorb the heat from the voice coil in almost any practical case. In practice, gradual demagnetization due to use simply does not occur. We have been making high power neodymium based drivers for many years now and we have never once measured a discernible number from heat. While Neodymium is nearly 10 times as strong as a similar sized ceramic magnets, it can cost up to 50 times too which is almost exclusively why it is not used often. Also, traditional overhung motors, which account for more than 95% of all car audio designs, can get everything they need out of a ceramic magnet assembly and stronger neodymium would be perhaps unnecessary. If we could use neo more, we would, but because it’s a patented martial, it’s just not economically practical for most designs. Furthermore, in order the magnetize neodymium, A magnetizer with over twice as much power and energy needs to be used. Many manufactures lack the capabilities of even magnetizing neodymium, so it becomes impractical to not only use it, but to manufacture. #16 Its all about maximum displacement A DIY’er favorite statistic, displacement / dollars. If you’re considering any bass above 40Hz then throw it out the door right now. Often times people assume that simply because one or more drivers have more maximum displacement over another type of woofer, than they will ultimately be the better performer(s). In many cases this is true, but it’s not true in general. Displacement alone does not guarantee SPL. In fact, SPL depends on not only displacement, but frequency range, sensitivity, box size, and BL product too. This is simply a matter of converting energy into acoustic sound pressure level and different devices work more efficiently than others for different frequency ranges. For subwoofers, it is generally accepted that BL product is the dominate factor that accounts for much of the performance or rather system efficiency, especially in a bass reflex or more complex system where there is a lot of air mass to displace. But keep in mind, depending on the type of system, size, frequency range, power and thermal limits, there may be even more critical and dependent variables that determine the overall performance of a system. None the less, high displacement is usually a good indicator that the subwoofer can excel in deep bass SPL. Of course there are other factors to consider depending on the system of system.
  14. So Low iT Hz

    Subwoofer myths exposed

    #14 It’s a bigger driver, then I need a bigger amp Often times larger drivers require less amplification, that’s sort of the idea. The concept of bigger woofers need more power is not always true and plays right into the ever progressing misconception of car audio. What you should consider is the efficiency of the subwoofer. Efficiency will literally tell you how much acoustic output you will get given an amount of power (assuming linear limits of course). If the driver is bigger, has a larger motor and has a higher sensitivity, there is no mystery about it, you are going to get more SPL with the same amplifier provided the impedance is similar and the amplifier can produce high voltage at impedance peaks when the driver naturally draws very little current for a narrow range. If a driver is more efficient and has a larger voice coil, well you just got your cake and you can now eat it. Not only will it be louder, but it will have less thermal compression and ultimately more sound provided all else is equal (but such is not usually not the case). It’s often difficult to make voice coils larger and increase sensitivity too. This usually requires very large motors and expense. Sensitivity is most easily achieved by weight reduction usually from the cone surround and voice coil. Sensitivity is often a trade off of xmax and thermal compression limits. However there are many larger drivers that don’t have ultra high sensitivity. A good pro audio subwoofer may have 6 to 10dB higher sensitivity over an average high excursion car audio subwoofer. That advantage makes them very capable with quite a bit less power at least for their frequency range which is usually above 40Hz. Likewise, SPL drivers ironically enough don’t need much power either! Let me repeat. True SPL drivers ironically enough don’t need much power! That’s because they are used in the higher frequency domain not limited by displacement and generally have great sensitivity numbers. They need this in order to get the excursion and ultimately SPL they need to win contests. High sensitivity and lots of power means lots of SPL provided the driver is still reasonably linear and does not physically break of course. Note: Strictly for SPL contest, drivers are normally burped at Fc (system resonance) which is the point of maximum current draw and minimum active driver displacement which is why excessive power must be used. Do not confuse that requirement with the much lower power requirements for sound reproduction outside that single SPL frequency. It’s important you know the TSP’s of the driver you buy, otherwise it could be the wrong driver for you! Who buys a car without knowing the horsepower? Just because a driver big and the manufacture claims pie in the sky RMS numbers doesn’t mean a thing! #15 Neodymium will lose its strength with heat Of course it will, and so will ceramic motors too, but the fact is, under even extreme operating conditions, it’s not likely the motor will ever reach these temperatures. There is just too much steel to absorb the heat from the voice coil in almost any practical case. In practice, gradual demagnetization due to use simply does not occur. We have been making high power neodymium based drivers for many years now and we have never once measured a discernible number from heat. While Neodymium is nearly 10 times as strong as a similar sized ceramic magnets, it can cost up to 50 times too which is almost exclusively why it is not used often. Also, traditional overhung motors, which account for more than 95% of all car audio designs, can get everything they need out of a ceramic magnet assembly and stronger neodymium would be perhaps unnecessary. If we could use neo more, we would, but because it’s a patented martial, it’s just not economically practical for most designs. Furthermore, in order the magnetize neodymium, A magnetizer with over twice as much power and energy needs to be used. Many manufactures lack the capabilities of even magnetizing neodymium, so it becomes impractical to not only use it, but to manufacture. #16 Its all about maximum displacement A DIY’er favorite statistic, displacement / dollars. If you’re considering any bass above 40Hz then throw it out the door right now. Often times people assume that simply because one or more drivers have more maximum displacement over another type of woofer, than they will ultimately be the better performer(s). In many cases this is true, but it’s not true in general. Displacement alone does not guarantee SPL. In fact, SPL depends on not only displacement, but frequency range, sensitivity, box size, and BL product too. This is simply a matter of converting energy into acoustic sound pressure level and different devices work more efficiently than others for different frequency ranges. For subwoofers, it is generally accepted that BL product is the dominate factor that accounts for much of the performance or rather system efficiency, especially in a bass reflex or more complex system where there is a lot of air mass to displace. But keep in mind, depending on the type of system, size, frequency range, power and thermal limits, there may be even more critical and dependent variables that determine the overall performance of a system. None the less, high displacement is usually a good indicator that the subwoofer can excel in deep bass SPL. Of course there are other factors to consider depending on the system of system.
  15. So Low iT Hz

    Subwoofer myths exposed

    #10 cone material affects the sound For low frequencies, the cone on a driver makes no difference in the sound whatsoever. The only possible affect it could have is in the case of a metal cone or very stiff composite cone that resonates at a high frequencies and buzzes. However this frequency would be up around 1000 to 2000Hz: Well beyond a bass driver’s usable limits. Various cone materials are used for various purposes. Some cones, such as composite core with fiberglass or carbon fiber skins are extremely light and very stiff, especially when pressed with epoxy. Other cones such as aluminum provide excellent thermal cooling to decrease voice coil operating temperatures when the heat is conducted though the (if possible) conductive former. The cones job is to push air, not break, and ideally not be too heavy (easier said that done). But they don’t change the tone, pitch or timbre of a subwoofer system whatsoever. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably hearing differences in the motor distortion, likely related to BL, compliance or other non-linear distortions not relating to the cone. #11 bigger magnet means more magnetic force The motor is essentially the steel and magnets on the bottom of the driver. Its job to create a magnetic circuit that has an air gap where flux lines cross in one direction so that a coil can rest in this field and carry current which then produces a force up and down and moves the piston to create SPL. The force that this motor creates is dependent on the amount of power or rather current inside the conductor F = B*L*I. So we need a more intuitive understanding of how a motor affects a driver’s performance without considering how much current it receives. This is the simple concept of “force factor”. Larger motors will ideally have higher force factors, but this number not only affected by the motor, its affected by the voice coil size, length, distance to the motor (gap) and conductive martial used too. The end result is in fact the BL squared divided by Re (resistance of the vc). This is literally Newtons squared per watt and is called the force factor. The higher the number, the more efficient the motor voice coil combination is and the more performance you get out of the motor. BL, one of the many TS parameters you are probably somewhat familiar with. It is literally the magnetic field “B” crossed with the conductor length “L.” L does not in fact depend on the number of turns on the voice coil, but rather the actual cross section area of the coil itself which is inside the gap. While force factor is entirely important for any high performance driver, one should also consider the moving mass. A 600 horse power engine in a semi truck is pretty typical, but in a sports car it’s certainly something to gloat about. Together, the force factor, moving mass and the piston area account for sensitivity. This number is very important even for subwoofers, especially for frequencies above ~60Hz. #12 Double bass kick, only good sounding drivers can do it We have all heard that only good “SQ” drivers can do double bass kick because they have good transient response or something to that extent. This is really nothing more than linear frequency response and lack of ring. If high Q subwoofers are in small boxes or if low Q subwoofers are in large ported boxes, the frequency response of the system will likely be greatly non-linear. This non-linear response compromises relative SPL and can drown out certain sounds and frequencies. Room acoustics can also do the same thing. The same subwoofer may sound completely different in another room simply because there could be poor coupling and non-linear frequency response as a result of standing waves and peaks in the response curve. A peak at 80Hz may make for a rather anemic 60Hz response, and while 60Hz appears to be the problem, it’s actually from the nonlinear response else where! The bottom line is “double bass kicks” are usually not a function of the driver or driver’s performance but rather the system design, linear frequency and room equalization. Often times people associate double bass as something to do with speed and only good drivers are fast. Believe it or not, even the largest and heaviest drivers, have no problem producing low frequencies, even 300Hz is a relatively slow long wavelength with a slow impulse time. Subwoofers are in fact MUCH faster than you would expect. Bottom line is, the lack of double bass, within the working limits of a driver, is not a problem with the driver so much as it is probably a problem with the system design, room and/or EQ settings. #13 Transient response is better with sealed boxes The fact is “transient response” is truly misleading and probably entirely unimportant at least for low frequency response. What people hear is really a function of the linear frequency response and distortion. It is often accepted that transient is a function of timing, but our ability to hear differences of a few milliseconds of low frequencies is quite negligible which is why the low frequency group delay of a 4th order system is quite unimportant next to the sensitivity advantages provided. Transient does not exclusively depend on sealed or ported designs, high Q, low Q, in fact, even drivers with high inductance don’t outright suffer from “transient response” insofar as we can physically distinguish certain sporadic behaviors because within their working range, they may be very efficient and dynamic. The fact is, what makes bass indeed bass, are long wavelengths that take considerable time to pass our ears. The perception of transient is really a function of perceived sound quality and there is really not appropriate example for good “transient response”. We as humans hear two things, distortion and SPL, and in the end that’s really want matters. What does improve “transient” response or perceived quality is usually more headroom, more drivers (usually larger boxes depending on the Qts of the driver), better efficiency and ultra low distortion within the prescribed limits of the system or drivers within the system. Sealed systems in fact don’t offer better transient response no more than ported even with their lower group delay tendencies, at least to human ears!
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