Closed Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40

Reload Thread: "Myths"

  1. #1
    Corsica's Avatar
    Corsica is offline CarAudio.com Veteran



    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Ft Huachuca, AZ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,997
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    "Myths"

    Okay i ahte posting on this so i need start a new thread cause i am now hella confused. I can take my 300 watt RMS sub and feed it 70 watts per coil peak power, and if my gains are set aso that tha sub doesn't creat distortion that i can hear @ my normal listening levals, then i won;t hurt my sub or amp @ all?? if this is true then tha people who sold me my sub are gonna hear iot. Or is it just MA AUDIO that cannot be underpowered?


    J



    "A man doesnt win a war by dying for his country. He does it by making the other poor dumb son of a beyotch die for his." Patton


    No system installed, but getting all the parts together.



    J




  2. #2
    chris229's Avatar
    chris229 is offline CarAudio.com Elite



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Wilm, DE
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,107
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    your 100% correct---- set your amp to run full power a tad under distortion ---you'll be fine---you just will not be using the full power of the speaker..




  3. #3
    Corsica's Avatar
    Corsica is offline CarAudio.com Veteran

    Threadstarter


    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Ft Huachuca, AZ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,997
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Thight then that other amp goes straight in. And I am 90% certain i am right on this. Amps with wiring adapters that u attach thweir wires to ur power remote and grnd. wires are cheap **** amps?


    J



    "A man doesnt win a war by dying for his country. He does it by making the other poor dumb son of a beyotch die for his." Patton


    No system installed, but getting all the parts together.



    J

  4. #4
    chris229's Avatar
    chris229 is offline CarAudio.com Elite



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Wilm, DE
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,107
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by Corsica
    Thight then that other amp goes straight in. And I am 90% certain i am right on this. Amps with wiring adapters that u attach thweir wires to ur power remote and grnd. wires are cheap **** amps?


    J
    sure are




  5. #5
    vasyachkin's Avatar
    vasyachkin is offline Junior Member



    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    for once we can agree, the more powerful the amp the lower gauge wiring you need, if the amp cannot directly accept low gauge wire means it was never designed to be used for high power so it is ****.




  6. #6
    chris229's Avatar
    chris229 is offline CarAudio.com Elite



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Wilm, DE
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,107
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by vasyachkin
    for once we can agree, the more powerful the amp the lower gauge wiring you need, if the amp cannot directly accept low gauge wire means it was never designed to be used for high power so it is ****.
    agree on what??? yes ---high current calls for big gauge wire---------------but so does long wire runs-----------so it is possible that a bigger wire maybe be needed to cover wire runs--------even bigger than what the amp was designed for




  7. #7
    jlaine's Avatar
    jlaine is offline Vaporware



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Morris, MN
    Posts
    2,607
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by vasyachkin
    for once we can agree, the more powerful the amp the lower gauge wiring you need, if the amp cannot directly accept low gauge wire means it was never designed to be used for high power so it is ****.
    Be mindful of that high power commentary.... voltage drops happen because of current demand/wire resistance... gains are VOLTAGE controls, not amperage controls... even wickedly large amplifiers don't throw out that much current.

    I fail to see how an amp is garbage because of it's inability to accept something larger than needed. It was created to accept the cable it needs to run properly, from there, the rest is excess.




  8. #8
    GsPoT's Avatar
    GsPoT is offline Junior Member



    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Houston
    Age
    29
    Posts
    2
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Well also though the distirtion coming out of the amp will not change much no matter what unless you add voltage to your car by doing that you will get a much more crisp sound to the subs and that will keep your amps from overheating and it will hurt your subs no matter what... no matter what you do you will always get a little distortion and that will slowly hurt your subs. an easy way to keep from hurting your subs is by NEVER playing chopped and screwed music almost all the bass notes on those songs are alot of distortion from the frequency of the not e and length being tampered with.



    XxJoShxX

  9. #9
    jlaine's Avatar
    jlaine is offline Vaporware



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Morris, MN
    Posts
    2,607
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by GsPoT
    Well also though the distirtion coming out of the amp will not change much no matter what unless you add voltage to your car by doing that you will get a much more crisp sound to the subs and that will keep your amps from overheating and it will hurt your subs no matter what... no matter what you do you will always get a little distortion and that will slowly hurt your subs. an easy way to keep from hurting your subs is by NEVER playing chopped and screwed music almost all the bass notes on those songs are alot of distortion from the frequency of the not e and length being tampered with.
    Distortion does not harm subwoofers.




  10. #10
    chris229's Avatar
    chris229 is offline CarAudio.com Elite



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Wilm, DE
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,107
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by jlaine


    Distortion does not harm subwoofers.
    yes------distortion hurting speakers is a BIG myth.




  11. #11
    Plater's Avatar
    Plater is offline Member



    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Ont. Canada
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by jlaine


    Be mindful of that high power commentary.... voltage drops happen because of current demand/wire resistance... gains are VOLTAGE controls, not amperage controls... even wickedly large amplifiers don't throw out that much current.

    I fail to see how an amp is garbage because of it's inability to accept something larger than needed. It was created to accept the cable it needs to run properly, from there, the rest is excess.

    You can't say that gains are voltage related. They are both that is why an audio amp is called a power amp POWER, voltage and current. The gain does set the voltage levels BUT voltage and current go hand in hand if resistance stays the same and voltage goes up so does current.

    Remeber that the many reason that car audio speakers a 4 or less ohms is because the voltage in which the power supply stage of an amp has to boost to is lower. If i run a 2 ohm load there is going to be a fairly larger amount of current flow.

    power=voltage * current , power =voltage^2/resistance, power = current^2*resistance.

    A wickedly larger amp will push a larger amount of current.
    lets see 2ohms 200W ok 200/2=I^2 that equallys 10amps two channels 20amps that is a little bit of current. Remember most houses are wired for 110amps or total current draw. Most car alt. are made for 80 to 100amp charging currents. Putting 20 amps to the speakers at 200w each needs 400W/12=33amps and at say 75% is roughly 40amps there is a larger amount of current draw.




  12. #12
    Alaxan's Avatar
    Alaxan is offline Common Sense Guru



    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    WI
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,202
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by GsPoT
    no matter what you do you will always get a little distortion and that will slowly hurt your subs.
    I beg to differ here. It is indeed possible to not get distortion if the install and setup has been done properly. As for hurting the subs? You will not hurt them with a mild amount of distortion even if you do get some. You will however hurt your subs if you continue to set your system up so poorly that you are always getting distortion LMAO



    -Alax
    CEO Alchemy Computer Systems

    Questions or comments?
    Yahoo: Static_Lullaby_77
    AOL: StaticLulaby1977
    MSN: Alaxinlord@hotmail.com

  13. #13
    jlaine's Avatar
    jlaine is offline Vaporware



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Morris, MN
    Posts
    2,607
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by Plater



    You can't say that gains are voltage related. They are both that is why an audio amp is called a power amp POWER, voltage and current. The gain does set the voltage levels BUT voltage and current go hand in hand if resistance stays the same and voltage goes up so does current.

    Remeber that the many reason that car audio speakers a 4 or less ohms is because the voltage in which the power supply stage of an amp has to boost to is lower. If i run a 2 ohm load there is going to be a fairly larger amount of current flow.

    power=voltage * current , power =voltage^2/resistance, power = current^2*resistance.

    A wickedly larger amp will push a larger amount of current.
    lets see 2ohms 200W ok 200/2=I^2 that equallys 10amps two channels 20amps that is a little bit of current. Remember most houses are wired for 110amps or total current draw. Most car alt. are made for 80 to 100amp charging currents. Putting 20 amps to the speakers at 200w each needs 400W/12=33amps and at say 75% is roughly 40amps there is a larger amount of current draw.
    Houses are wired for 110amps?
    It's 120 volts, and usually 15 or 20 amp circuits @ that voltage.

    Gains are voltage controls. Hook an amplifier up to a resistive load and probe the signal, and tell me exactly what you see.

    Putting 20 amps to the speakers at 200 watts is not possible, unless you have a faulty amp that is nearly sending a DC signal. Just for reference, the Earthquake 200dhc Mark 2, aka the D2, has a 20 amp fuse on the speaker outputs, and it's capable of delivering about 1600W without popping that fuse...

    Understand why?

    You lower the impedance load, the current goes up, while the voltage that the GAIN set, tries to stay at the same level. This is what happened with the amplifier I designed anyway, and I followed some of the designs that every major EE uses... So unless my benchmarks and their tech breifings suddenly became outdated, I think I'll go off of the solid evidence I have in front of me.

    Try passing a speaker rated at 200w, 20 amps worth of current, lets see how long the puny 20ga windings on that voice coil withstand the heat and abuse...
    Last edited by jlaine; 08-25-2002 at 07:33 PM.




  14. #14
    Plater's Avatar
    Plater is offline Member



    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Ont. Canada
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Houses are wired with many ccts. that are usually protected with a 15amp breaker. But the main current feed to the house is usually a 110amp service. I know that the line voltage is 120V RMS 170pk-pk. I was saying that the current draw of car amplifiers is fairly large compared to house cct.

    And I was saying that the amp was powering two speakers each at 10amps of current.
    Oh and if an amp is rated for 200w RMS at 2 ohms then it has to provide 10amps of current to the speaker or it isn't a 200w amp.

    Ohms law is pretty straightforward.
    If the voltage is amplified and the load stays the same the current is also amplified.

    Look all I was trying to say was that you said that the current flow out of an amp is small which is not true. It can be large. The numbers I used where just number i picked for a 200w rating at 2ohms. This is a fairly larger amp, is it made I don't know.

    The reason I posted this was because you said that even large amps don't through out much current. They can, the house current reference was used to compare current flow from an amp to something that is used in a house. 5 amps or so is a large current flow compared to avg house electrical appliances.

    What I was trying to say is audio amps have larger current outputs in comparison to many things back to why don't amp manf. use bigger connectors.

    It is true lower impedance current goes up plus because the voltage gain is set the current has to go up four times to reach the proper voltage feed back level. Then the power supply can’t take the load rail voltage drops and the signal clips. But if an amp can drive a 2ohm load to 200WRMS then the power supply and the amp must be able to handle a 10amp current draw. This is obviously a fairly powerful amp!

    Oh and I have also designed my own amps by myself using my own knowledge of electronics and I also work at a power generating station where I do various designs and tests of electronic eq.

    QUOTE: Putting 20 amps to the speakers at 200 watts is not possible, unless you have a faulty amp that is nearly sending a DC signal

    I have a question is there a difference between DC power and AC RMS power?
    And that is 10amps to each speaker.

    QUOTE: Just for reference, the Earthquake 200dhc Mark 2, aka the D2, has a 20 amp fuse on the speaker outputs, and it's capable of delivering about 1600W without popping that fuse...

    I don't know much about ths amp but putting a fuse on the output to the speaker is just bad design. You introduce fuse distrotion, voltage drops across the fuse, it is a cheap way to add output short protection. Knowing that i would wonder what else is lacking in the design of that ampliifer. And remember it was only 10 amps to each speaker @ 2ohms to get 200w to each speaker.




  15. #15
    jlaine's Avatar
    jlaine is offline Vaporware



    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Morris, MN
    Posts
    2,607
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Originally posted by Plater
    Houses are wired with many ccts. that are usually protected with a 15amp breaker. But the main current feed to the house is usually a 110amp service. I know that the line voltage is 120V RMS 170pk-pk. I was saying that the current draw of car amplifiers is fairly large compared to house cct.


    Where on earth do you live? Everywhere in the US I've ever dealt with is either 100 amp service, or 200 amp service, never have I dealt with this 110 amp service.

    Originally posted by Plater
    And I was saying that the amp was powering two speakers each at 10amps of current.
    Oh and if an amp is rated for 200w RMS at 2 ohms then it has to provide 10amps of current to the speaker or it isn't a 200w amp.
    Completely incorrect.

    P = V^2/R this is the formula used for calculating output energy, you know why? We always use it for bench testing amplifiers, this is globally accepted.

    P = I * E
    The fets in most amplifiers are rated well above the current they actually put out, but it's their output voltage that matters. Therein lies the factual power behind an amplifier. I can send 200 amps of power into a speaker at 5 volts, and 1 amp of power into it at 5 volts, and the cone will be proportioned to move the same amount... Wave amplitude is what we are after...

    Originally posted by Plater
    Ohms law is pretty straightforward.
    If the voltage is amplified and the load stays the same the current is also amplified.
    Not to the proportion you are attempting to portray.

    Originally posted by Plater
    Look all I was trying to say was that you said that the current flow out of an amp is small which is not true. It can be large. The numbers I used where just number i picked for a 200w rating at 2ohms. This is a fairly larger amp, is it made I don't know.
    20 amps out of a 200 watt amplifier is a complete crock. I don't even have to get my fluke clampmeter out to disprove this, I already know it's incorrect...

    Originally posted by Plater
    The reason I posted this was because you said that even large amps don't through out much current. They can, the house current reference was used to compare current flow from an amp to something that is used in a house. 5 amps or so is a large current flow compared to avg house electrical appliances.
    Average house electrical appliaces 5 amps being large? I can think of a few...

    Fridge, about 10
    Blender, about 7
    Microwave, about 15
    Diswasher, varies, around 5 - 15
    Oven, electrical style, anywhere from 15 - 30

    Other problem with this, total power (5 amps at 14V) and (5 amps at 120V) is drastically and completely different.

    Originally posted by Plater
    What I was trying to say is audio amps have larger current outputs in comparison to many things back to why don't amp manf. use bigger connectors.
    They don't need them. Gains are voltage controls. Why do they have larger inputs? What do you think it takes to get from 12V DC to 120VAC? There is some serious amplitude modification, the amount of decibel gain requires some serious voltage jumps. Why do you think everyone measures the pots at dBv? Why do you think pro amps measure their rated power by the voltage gain?

    Originally posted by Plater
    It is true lower impedance current goes up plus because the voltage gain is set the current has to go up four times to reach the proper voltage feed back level. Then the power supply can’t take the load rail voltage drops and the signal clips. But if an amp can drive a 2ohm load to 200WRMS then the power supply and the amp must be able to handle a 10amp current draw. This is obviously a fairly powerful amp!
    Wait a minute, you said the speakers need to handle a 10 amp current draw, now suddenly it's the power supply... We need for you to get your facts straight... Either its the speaker taking the 10 amps (incorrect) or the power supply drawing the 10 amps and feeding the mosfets on the output stage. (correct.)

    Originally posted by Plater
    Oh and I have also designed my own amps by myself using my own knowledge of electronics and I also work at a power generating station where I do various designs and tests of electronic eq.
    Then you should know you are incorrect in your output theories...

    Originally posted by Plater
    QUOTE: Putting 20 amps to the speakers at 200 watts is not possible, unless you have a faulty amp that is nearly sending a DC signal

    I have a question is there a difference between DC power and AC RMS power?
    And that is 10amps to each speaker.
    To a speaker? Hell yes...

    Originally posted by Plater

    I don't know much about ths amp but putting a fuse on the output to the speaker is just bad design. You introduce fuse distrotion, voltage drops across the fuse, it is a cheap way to add output short protection. Knowing that i would wonder what else is lacking in the design of that ampliifer. And remember it was only 10 amps to each speaker @ 2ohms to get 200w to each speaker.
    Again incorrect. The design is fine. You think the pathetically small amount of distortion introduced by that fuse, or the ridiculously marginal amount of voltage drop is going to matter at 1600W? I'll gladly sit you down, double blind test you , to try and tell me which wire has a fuse in line with it, and which doesn't, because I know you'll fail, as would I.
    Last edited by jlaine; 08-25-2002 at 08:51 PM.




Closed Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may post attachments
  • You may edit your posts

1e2 Forum