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  1. #31
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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by ladysmanfelpz View Post
    Interested in this as well. I am a sound quality oriented guy and have four 2 way co ax 6.5s at 35 watts each and a 10"cvx on 400 watts in ported enclosure. Planning my next build and want great sub sound quality. Was thinking a high power handling 12" in a sealed enclosure would fit my bill perfectly. Wouldn't a T1 or W7 in a sealed box on say 1000-1500 watts be louder than my cvx in ported enclosure? And wouldn't the frequency response be a lot better and truer? Not sure of the term but I hear you lose the resonant float of a sub when fading out of a note when placed in a sealed enclosure. I like the idea of usable space and I just don't see why people throw 2-4 type r's or other mid grade subs and fill up an entire trunk when you could spend the extra money on a well designed powerful sub that hits just as hard.
    Your going in the opposite direction if you want an SQ setup for your next build...

    ---------- Post added at 02:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imtjnotu View Post
    Lol wtf is a super woofer
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  2. #32
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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by ladysmanfelpz View Post
    Interested in this as well. I am a sound quality oriented guy and have four 2 way co ax 6.5s at 35 watts each and a 10"cvx on 400 watts in ported enclosure. Planning my next build and want great sub sound quality. Was thinking a high power handling 12" in a sealed enclosure would fit my bill perfectly. Wouldn't a T1 or W7 in a sealed box on say 1000-1500 watts be louder than my cvx in ported enclosure? And wouldn't the frequency response be a lot better and truer? Not sure of the term but I hear you lose the resonant float of a sub when fading out of a note when placed in a sealed enclosure. I like the idea of usable space and I just don't see why people throw 2-4 type r's or other mid grade subs and fill up an entire trunk when you could spend the extra money on a well designed powerful sub that hits just as hard.
    Honestly wtf are you talking about...you talk about sq then say ur running coaxial...then bring uo the t1 and dub 7....




  3. #33
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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    For all the daily systems I've ran I have always gone with cone area on a decent quality driver... Box has ALWAYS been designed around the vehicles cabin gain...




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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by tc300 View Post
    For all the daily systems I've ran I have always gone with cone area on a decent quality driver... Box has ALWAYS been designed around the vehicles cabin gain...
    How dare you bring logic into this stupidity fest




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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by Imtjnotu View Post
    Lol wtf is a super woofer
    dude its a woofer that (in its off time) flies around in a red cape battling the lex woofer. But they have a secret identity, so noone k ows which woofers they actually are.

    I myself tbink they are funky pups.



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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    The above statement was @ the guy that brought up the r's in his statement.



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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by 2Dcore View Post
    The above statement was @ the guy that brought up the r's in his statement.
    Which above statement? Learn to use the quoting function.



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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by ewadz3006 View Post
    dude its a woofer that (in its off time) flies around in a red cape battling the lex woofer. But they have a secret identity, so noone k ows which woofers they actually are.

    I myself tbink they are funky pups.
    Had a pair once, true story. Never ran them though.



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  9. #39
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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by hcivic91 View Post
    I was reading through the Sundown forum and began to wonder what the benefits of super woofers like the new ZV4 and X-12 are.

    Higher power handeling is one but that by itself is not a benenfit unless it allows the sub to get louder. What I struggle with is how 1 high buck 12" like a NS on 2500 watts is better than 3 SA-12s on the same power. I assume its not that a single NS can play louder than 3 SA-12s but that it can play **** loud but in a lot less space.

    I'd like to know more.
    As with anything as you get past the "good" level and approach the "great" level costs rise in excess of the benefits gained; otherwise known as the law of diminishing returns.

    There are several categories of "super woofers" out there today :

    1) Incredibly low distortion woofers
    2) Incredibly high power handling woofers
    3) Incredibly high motor force woofers

    Typically you'll get one or two of those categories at best.

    Our X and Z lines lean towards 1 and 2 -- and we really haven't made any drivers to seek after #3 to date (Neo woofers and some massive ferrite motors fit this bill).

    So let's just cover what was gained even by going from the Z v.3 to Z v.4

    1) We enlarged the spider by 1" or so on each size woofer. This lowers distortion first and foremost and the spider can remain more linear. This also increases potential output since the spider will not be reaching it's limits before the coil; on most higher powered woofers on standard frames you can demolish the triple joint before the coil has reached it's limits. And thirdly it reduces failures for the same reason I just mentioned... by the time the spider has reached it's limits the motor is very weak and can no longer shatter glue joints if the motor can even reach the limit of the spider at all (none of our current motors can reach the limit of our 257mm spider).

    2) We enlarged the surround dramatically. Again... as part of the suspension that is remaining more linear the distortion at higher stroke is reduced. And again it also reduces possible failures as the surround is no longer a bottle-neck at high excursion... with the increased spider sizes our old surrounds would be torn to bits.

    3) Increased mechanical clearance. There is more to the sound of a driver than distortion generated by BL, Le, and Suspension -- there is also mechanical NOISE. Most high excursion drivers on the 12-spoke frame or 4-spoke frame (primarily 10s and 12s... 15s and 18s much more clearance) will have issues with parts rubbing together, hitting each other, etc, etc as these frames were never designed for truly high excursion and the clearances are just not there.

    4) Based on earlier testing folks that can reach the new mechanical limits could gain anywhere from 1 to 2 dB of output from the above -- all the while having a more reliable driver with less distortion and noise.

    5) In our case the new frames allowed me to use my directed air cooling spacers on all sizes; we've tested decent thermal gains with these vs. open cooling when paired with our motor ventilation methods. So thermal power handling has also risen a bit from this... also, as you could imagine, if you are driving a coil with more and more power and it has hit a mechanical brick wall (no more movement) you are simply adding heat -- if the coil can continue to move more and thus pump more air it can cool itself better; another "side" benefit.

    Now... as far as pushing low distortion to it's limits there are many ways to go about it not often implemented in cheaper woofers. Shorting rings, more linear motors, more linear spiders, etc, etc.

    Going from the Z v.3 to Z v.4 we were able to increase the pole extension substantially -- which we've had Klippel verified to increase linear x-max by about 20% or so on other designs when using the exact same coil and top plate heights. A pole this tall would have smacked into the dust cap on the older frames.

    The Z v.3 already featured shorting rings and the v.4, of course, carries that on.

    Now I may have rambled a bit... but hope that helps.




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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    I did get a bit off subject *laughs*

    But some other posts did cover it fairly well -- a "super woofer" does allow you to get the same output / same or lower THD level at that output in less overall space as well. This is often a deciding factor for using one "big" driver vs. multiple "smaller" drivers.




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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by 2Dcore View Post
    The above statement was @ the guy that brought up the r's in his statement.
    eh????



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  13. #42
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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Quote Originally Posted by sundownz View Post
    I did get a bit off subject *laughs*

    But some other posts did cover it fairly well -- a "super woofer" does allow you to get the same output / same or lower THD level at that output in less overall space as well. This is often a deciding factor for using one "big" driver vs. multiple "smaller" drivers.

    Jacob,
    Thank you for the thoughtful answer(s), even if slightly off topic. I'd like to follow-up.

    I would ask who the target market is for your flagship line but I think it might be more beneficial to ask who you see having the most success or being the happiest with your top product lines are. Are people in the lanes happiest with NS and V series or is it guys who want loud daily set-ups?

    Thanks again,
    Joseph




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    Re: Advantages of 'super' woofer

    Jacob, have you ever tried or though about doing a XBL^2 motor? It would seem to mesh somewhat with your design philosophy. Lowers distortion, inductance, and reduces the need for power handing in long throw designs.



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