Ancient school subwoofers: Kicker C12A

[kharvel]

what is the net volume of the enclosure you intend to use and what type is it, Second Order Acoustic Suspension or Fourth Order Bass Reflex?

It is a custom trunk enclosure. See my comment to Spooney above.

Keep the Opti...that is likely a Zed amp and they are rare.

I'm not familiar with the Zed amplifiers. Does "rare" mean that they're just as good as the high-end amps today and much better than the cheap amps today, even after 16 years of technological progress?

I can't tell, but are you looking to upgrade the JL amp too?

Should I be upgrading it? When I bought it back in 2001, they were the top-of-line Class D amplifiers and cost me a pretty penny (I think I paid $500 for it). Would it still be worth $500 today new or has technology progressed to the extent that a cheap no-name amp would work just as well as the JL?

[av83]

kenwood subs and amps are total junk, don't waste your money on them

although this statement its mostly true, there are a few good things out there. My highs amp sat on a shelf for months after picking it up on craigslist just because I didn't want to give it a chance. Gave it a shot and turned out to be a flat out beast. As for the subs, my brother has them and they don't sound bad at all on 300 rms each.

[snoopdan]

I think they're comparing everything in its class of what you have to today's equipment. You can get stupid power for cheap these days, an example i'll cite before someone else does is the APSM-1500 which does rated 1500 watts of power for around $120 and is the size of a carton of cigarettes. 20 years ago that would of set you back a thousand. But today for $1000 you can get 10,000 watts rated. shit's changed bro.

[CrossoverOre]

Things have changed since 2000 but not all for the better. More power doesnt always make a better system (better also being subjective.) The jl 500.1 is probably still a better amp than most of the cheap stuff you find online. everythings going to class d but the THD of class d amps is significantly worse than ab amps. as for the mb quartz keep them.

[kharvel]

I think they're comparing everything in its class of what you have to today's equipment. You can get stupid power for cheap these days, an example i'll cite before someone else does is the APSM-1500 which does rated 1500 watts of power for around $120 and is the size of a carton of cigarettes. 20 years ago that would of set you back a thousand. But today for $1000 you can get 10,000 watts rated. shit's changed bro.

Is that 1500 watts RMS for $120??

The JL 500.1 was 500 watts RMS at any ohm. That was cutting edge way back when I bought it. How does this APSM-1500 compare?

[snoopdan]

Is that 1500 watts RMS for $120??

The JL 500.1 was 500 watts RMS at any ohm. That was cutting edge way back when I bought it. How does this APSM-1500 compare?

The signal to noise ratio is a little high but people have been doing 1500 rms with them. My buddy bought two the other day just to compete at a MECA sound off competition which he won in his class (street 2) doing a 148 with them. They do what they say they can do .... and for cheap! I'm probably going to buy a couple my self for a stealth install in my C6 Corvette. Apparently, Audiopipe is now the holy grail of the 1000-2000 watt range of amplifiers.

[JoeK]

The signal to noise ratio is a little high but people have been doing 1500 rms with them. My buddy bought two the other day just to compete at a MECA sound off competition which he won in his class (street 2) doing a 148 with them. They do what they say they can do .... and for cheap! I'm probably going to buy a couple my self for a stealth install in my C6 Corvette. Apparently, Audiopipe is now the holy grail of the 1000-2000 watt range of amplifiers.

My APSM blew up after i set it to do rated power. Overheated with 800W rms in about 20 minutes. Really good amp here guys, lets jump on this deal.

[snoopdan]

My APSM blew up after i set it to do rated power. Overheated with 800W rms in about 20 minutes. Really good amp here guys, lets jump on this deal.

Tough luck for ya there, I've seen them run fine in other peoples rides.

[quackhead]

Is that 1500 watts RMS for $120??

The JL 500.1 was 500 watts RMS at any ohm. That was cutting edge way back when I bought it. How does this APSM-1500 compare?

As you can see, there really is no comparison to be made to the JL..the only place I have ever seen the Audiopipe amps these guys are talking about are in the local pawn shops. There is a certain volume you will listen to, if your goal is clean and accurate music reproduction...it is finding the best quality and reliability you can afford to reach that level of clean and well balanced output. No, you will not find a quality built, and reliable 1500 watt amp for $125. I don't know about you, but when I shop for car audio electronics, I want the best I can afford. I may not be heard 3 blocks down the road, but I will be enjoying my music while driving down the road and feel comfortable that my equipment will perform like I want it to day in and day out until I decide to change something..

[snoopdan]

As you can see, there really is no comparison to be made to the JL..the only place I have ever seen the Audiopipe amps these guys are talking about are in the local pawn shops. There is a certain volume you will listen to, if your goal is clean and accurate music reproduction...it is finding the best quality and reliability you can afford to reach that level of clean and well balanced output. No, you will not find a quality built, and reliable 1500 watt amp for $125. I don't know about you, but when I shop for car audio electronics, I want the best I can afford. I may not be heard 3 blocks down the road, but I will be enjoying my music while driving down the road and feel comfortable that my equipment will perform like I want it to day in and day out until I decide to change something..

guess you're not in the lanes much

[quackhead]

guess you're not in the lanes much

nope...I have no desire whatsoever to own the cheapest audio equipment available..nor the most expensive. If it means saving a few more bucks to afford a reliable and solid $250-$300amp like the B2 Quota(1200+ rms), AQ 1200D(1200+ rms), American Bass VFL100.1(1500+ rms) etc., I am all for it.

ps..I have thought about it though...but at 500 -700 mi round trip to the nearest area that has frequent comps..meh...nah.

[snoopdan]

nope...I have no desire whatsoever to own the cheapest audio equipment available..nor the most expensive. If it means saving a few more bucks to afford a reliable and solid $250-$300amp like the B2 Quota(1200+ rms), AQ 1200D(1200+ rms), American Bass VFL100.1(1500+ rms) etc., I am all for it.

ps..I have thought about it though...but at 500 -700 mi round trip to the nearest area that has frequent comps..meh...nah.

Well, i'm deep in the heart of competition area. I'm also a MECA judge so I literally do see everything that rolls thru the lanes. Alot of people use APSM1500's. Now don't get me wrong I like the good stuff too (I run a Creshendo 5500, previously ran an Atomic 5k) so i'm by far from being cheap

[quackhead]

I'm not familiar with the Zed amplifiers. Does "rare" mean that they're just as good as the high-end amps today and much better than the cheap amps today, even after 16 years of technological progress?

Yes. Steve Mantz was a engineer for many of the best A/B amps produced back when for various manufacturers...the Old Man had a knack for engineering U.S.. made amps that were capable of being driven to a stupid low impedance at stupid low voltages and sound good doing it, Including the Lanzar OPTI lines from 16 yrs ago, IIRC. He now runs his own manufacturing outfit-
WoofersEtc.com - Draconia II - ZED Audio 4-Channel 400W RMS Amplifier

Should I be upgrading it? When I bought it back in 2001, they were the top-of-line Class D amplifiers and cost me a pretty penny (I think I paid $500 for it). Would it still be worth $500 today new or has technology progressed to the extent that a cheap no-name amp would work just as well as the JL?

WoofersEtc.com - 500/1v2 - JL Audio 500 Watt Mono Amplifier

[kharvel]

Yes. Steve Mantz was a engineer for many of the best A/B amps produced back when for various manufacturers...the Old Man had a knack for engineering U.S.. made amps that were capable of being driven to a stupid low impedance at stupid low voltages and sound good doing it, Including the Lanzar OPTI lines from 16 yrs ago, IIRC. He now runs his own manufacturing outfit-
WoofersEtc.com - Draconia II - ZED Audio 4-Channel 400W RMS Amplifier


WoofersEtc.com - 500/1v2 - JL Audio 500 Watt Mono Amplifier

Wow, thanks for the great info. Looks like both the Lanzar and JL amps are keepers. I never intended to replace them because they were top-of-line when I bought them and have served me well over the years and I'm glad to know they're still quality products even today.

I know people have said the Kenwood subs I bought were crap but at $47 per sub shipped, what is your opinion strictly on a value bang-for-buck basis? I'm not looking for cheap subs or high-end subs. . just subs good or better than the current C12A at the best value - did I get that with the Kenwoods?

[quackhead]

Wow, thanks for the great info. Looks like both the Lanzar and JL amps are keepers. I never intended to replace them because they were top-of-line when I bought them and have served me well over the years and I'm glad to know they're still quality products even today.

I know people have said the Kenwood subs I bought were crap but at $47 per sub shipped, what is your opinion strictly on a value bang-for-buck basis? I'm not looking for cheap subs or high-end subs. . just subs good or better than the current C12A at the best value - did I get that with the Kenwoods?

Yes, both amps are keepers if they function 100%. You should know that there are some internal parts in amplifiers that can fail over time due to age. Capacitors can rupture and leak fluid. This is a problem with common in some amps 15+ years old. All I can say is try them, you have nothing to lose there. I am not saying this applies to ALL older amps, and the ones you have could very well last another 10 yrs.

The major advancements I have seen and heard are in some of the full range class D mini amps from Alpine, JBL, Precision Power,JL Audio, etc. These amps ere exhibiting phenomenal clean output levels in a miniature chassis. Class G/H amps from Vibe Audio, Clarion, Arc Audio, etc. are beginning to gain reputation because they can produce Class A/B SQ at Class D efficiency levels. So, mainly the advancements are in the form of electrical efficiency by designing faster switching devices allowing a few Class D's to approach A/B SQ.
examples:
Class D:
WoofersEtc.com - P900.4 - Precision Power 4-Channel 900 Watt Max Class D Amplifier
11"x7"x2"
Precision Power PPI P1000.1 (p10001) Monoblock Phantom Car Amplifier
12"x7"x2"

Class G/H:
WoofersEtc.com - KS 300.2 - ARC Audio 2 Channel 700 Watt Amplifier

As far as the Kenwood subs, I would not have looked at them, but I do not know your budget and you already bought them, so you might as well try them....If you do not like them, my idea of best bang for the buck subs are the Powerbass M, L series, the Sundown E series, Sound Solutions Audio GCON series or the American Bass TNT. Any of these can be had for @ $125 ea or less in 10" or 12" versions. And there are several more to choose from too. IMO a good sub is one that will handle 150%+ of clean, unclipped rms input power on music.
The American Bass XFL 12" sub can handle 1500-2000w RMS for @ $200 ea. One of these has the potential to outperform any of the others I have mentioned in multiples, as far as SQL.
PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - American Bass XFL1244 Subwoofer

You mentioned the $1 per watt factor we all suffered from in the 90's and the cost of that JL 500/1...Check this out..A true 12v 500w rms @ 4ohm and 14v 2500 watt RMS @ 1ohm stable amp for less than $450. It requires pretty much the same electrical upgrades as one of those monster 1000w @ 1 ohm amps we remember from back when..
AQ2200D Amplifier