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Reload Thread: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

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    geolemon's Avatar
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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Here's an interesting transcript, from an online organized meeting, a public discussion with Tom Danley, some interesting points and links within, if you are interested in more understanding Tom Danley, the person:
    http://www.prosoundweb.com/chat_psw/...s/danley.shtml







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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    i really wish i could understand this



    i saw/heard a cyclone back in highschool, blew me away

    always wanted one since




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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    thanks for all the info....i've been reading all day thanks to this post

    if you have aim and don't mind answering some in-depth questions about your and other servo designs, my screen name is donnballenger



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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    This is easily one of the most informative threads I've read in quite some time. Unfortunately, Cyclone's are very hard to come by, and I certainly don't have the skills/knowledge to fabricate anything like what you're doing, geolemon. I'd at least like to be able to hear one of these things sometime, but I don't know of anyone nearby who has one.

    EDIT: It's probably just as well that I can't hear one, because doing so would make me want to buy one, and I already own one stupidly expensive subwoofer... can't afford another one.



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  5. #20
    geolemon's Avatar
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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Quote Originally Posted by awalbert88
    This is easily one of the most informative threads I've read in quite some time. Unfortunately, Cyclone's are very hard to come by, and I certainly don't have the skills/knowledge to fabricate anything like what you're doing, geolemon. I'd at least like to be able to hear one of these things sometime, but I don't know of anyone nearby who has one.

    EDIT: It's probably just as well that I can't hear one, because doing so would make me want to buy one, and I already own one stupidly expensive subwoofer... can't afford another one.
    LOL.. you are probably right, you'd also end up saying "why am I taxing my electrical system with this 1000 watt amp, when this thing does even more with 250 watts!"

    If you were interested in doing something to the effect of fabricating your own, you don't need to do a rotary version... I chose to simply because I want to explore it.. there's only ONE that's ever been marketed, the Cyclone! I want to see if I can push it in the other direction... Cyclone is a SQ sub.. but with such SPL capabilities as is, I wanted to see if I could expolit that side of Dr. Jeckyll/Mr. Cyclone...
    ServoDrive builds primarily servo subs using a single motor (identical to the ones I am using, minus the "tachometer" devices mine have), to which a rotary-to-linear motion converter is attached - and ServoDrive's design is very good for that, and patented also, I believe.. but a simple cam or swing-arm device could be more easily fabricated - and used to drive a pair of large cones, facing away from each other.
    Check it out, they used to have pics on their site before it was redesigned... I'm sure they are still there somewhere on www.servodrive.com.

    There was also a website "The ContraBass Corner" that was dedicated to enthusiasts who wished to pursue building one of these, which was very good, but it seems to have disappeared into cyberspace...
    It had great technical articles, a link to a Tom Danley whitepaper that simply described all the ins and outs, really good.
    Anyone who can find the site - possibly it has been rehosted somewhere (I'm optimistic) - PLEASE post a link to the new location! My fear is that it's sadly gone.




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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    I had the oppotunity to get hands on with this sub at a local shop. They had it just sitting on the floor out of the box like it was nothing. And then I picked it up....and it felt like nothing! It was made of almost all plastic, and felt very light. I couldnt believe that this was in infamous cyclone. This was the same sub right? Anyway, i couldnt hear it because it wasnt set up, but do these things even need boxes? It appeared that you could just mount it somewhere and it would work, even though thats probably not the case. Also, if this thing is basically just a lotta of plastic, and it sounds so good with so much efficiensy, then why was it never massed produced and why hasnt another company tried to manufacture a similar type of sub?




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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Quote Originally Posted by BumpinDoug
    I had the oppotunity to get hands on with this sub at a local shop. They had it just sitting on the floor out of the box like it was nothing. And then I picked it up....and it felt like nothing! It was made of almost all plastic, and felt very light. I couldnt believe that this was in infamous cyclone. This was the same sub right? Anyway, i couldnt hear it because it wasnt set up, but do these things even need boxes? It appeared that you could just mount it somewhere and it would work, even though thats probably not the case. Also, if this thing is basically just a lotta of plastic, and it sounds so good with so much efficiensy, then why was it never massed produced and why hasnt another company tried to manufacture a similar type of sub?
    That's it, it's almost all plastic, the servo motor contained in the end isn't that large, so it's not that heavy either.

    It definitely needs an enclosure, it's subject to the same design considerations as a typical cone-and-voice-coil based subwoofer.

    It was mass produced, by Phoenix Gold. This isn't a prototype of some sort... it's an actual production driver that was for sale on the mass market for years, available through any PG dealer.
    The Vortex, on the other hand, never made it past being a Phoenix Gold prototype, I hypothesize due to disappointing Cyclone sales.

    Your answer to "why hasn't any other company tried to manufacture a similar type of sub?" was answered above...
    Scroll up and read the first part of my reply to LoneRanger... I believe there are many reasons... again, none of them related to performance.




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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    this is one of the most intriguing/confusing/informative threads iv read.

    geolemen,i went to your site last week or so and you hadnt posted any information on the cyclone page,is this all recent information?or was i looking at the wrong page?




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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Quote Originally Posted by marleyskater420
    this is one of the most intriguing/confusing/informative threads iv read.

    geolemen,i went to your site last week or so and you hadnt posted any information on the cyclone page,is this all recent information?or was i looking at the wrong page?
    My main site doesn't have links to quite a few of the sites that I really have on there.. one of these days I'll get around to making my main index really complete, and a little easier to navigate, a little better organized.. it's in the plans.
    It's not exactly an example of great web design now... I'm going to improve that.

    Until then, you'll have to click the direct link:
    http://www.betteraudio.com/geolemon/cycloneinside
    And note, I don't have a link to the servo project from my main page either... but I do have a link to it from that page right there...




  10. #25
    B&R Innovation2's Avatar
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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Once its all done and together geo, I'm bringing rob and annex to buffalo and you are totaly going totaly demo it for us. And I wont take no for an answer.


    I've been excited about your project for entirly too long now.



    I used to spend a lot of my free time here. It was fun I suppose. Still rocking the 9515 and Better Audio amp haha.

    How's incriminator stuff these days?

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    geolemon's Avatar
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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Yeah, me too..
    Hopefully that won't be a year from now..




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    Re: Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics

    Quote Originally Posted by geolemon
    Yeah, me too..
    Hopefully that won't be a year from now..
    Found this while searching the web about Cyclones:

    The only rotary driver currently available (not any more!) for DIY is the "Cyclone", another Danley design, produced by Phoenix Gold. The Cyclone is quite different from the ContraBass, looking like a ducted fan.
    The Cyclone is based on a revolutionary new technology that uses the rotational force of an unconventional moving_magnet system to drive a radiator directly. This new system converts low frequency signals into acoustical output without the physical limitations of conventional voice coils, cones, spiders, and surrounds. The result of this innovation is a subwoofer with ultra low distortion and 3 times the displacement of a conventional 12_inch subwoofer.

    The Cyclone looks like a modified ducted fan _ a 12" outer cylindrical housing with what appear to be two simple fan blades attached to a central shaft, but with the addition of a pair of vanes. The motor uses a moving neodymium magnet within the rotor, with the VC anchored to the stator. This gives it excellent power handling (300 W, continuous).

    Like any other driver (even the Contra's), the Cyclone also produces a back wave and so the same enclosure decisions have to made when designing with it as with a more conventional driver. This is a little difficult because normal Thiele_Small parameters are largely meaningless for a driver of this type. (It is worth noting that Fs is quoted _ at 11 Hz!) As guidance, Phoenix Gold recommends its use in a 3 cu.ft. sealed or 3.5 cu.ft ported enclosure. Due to the extreme excursions possible with this design (125 cubic inches/2 liters displaced), to use it in a passive radiator (PR) design, you'll probably need two 15" PR's.

    However, according to Danley, the real key to using this driver well (he has them installed in his own listening room) is to provide sufficient air volume. Continuing the comparison of a Cyclone to a fan, one thing every engineer knows about fans vs. pumps (conventional drivers act as pumps) is that fans can move more air, but they can't generate much pressure. The vanes in the Cyclone prevent it from working exactly like a fan, but neither does it work exactly like a pump either. Still, like a fan, it works most efficiently when working into large volumes. Therefore, to effectively use a Cyclone, you don't want it working into a small contained volume. It would, however, make an excellent driver for a dipole woofer.

    "It appears that the product is discontinued. I wonder why. They couldn't tell me. I tought it was rather fun to buy one and test it, but alas... You might find it interesting that our own Tom Danley designed the Cyclone and ServoDrive liscenced it to Phoenix Gold. Unfortunately Phoenix took too many design liberites before final production and all the quality aluminum parts in all prototypes became cheaply molded plastics with poor tolerances and rigidity. Also, the original design was for an IB use, and they then tried to change it to work in many applicaitons and ended up with something which wasn't quite optimal for any alignments at all. For what it's worth,

    Tom had a similar pair of these units loaded into a crawl space which had response down to 11_13Hz (I forget). The final Cyclone ended up having some reliabliity problems along with odd parameters for the car market, and ultimately died. Interestingly, I believe one of the Hi_Fi rags had noted a Cyclone in a sealed box to be what he thought was a reference subwoofer and one of the top innovations on the market... and this was a while after the product was out.




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