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Reload Thread: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

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    Icon33 LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    from what it looks like, a SIGNIFICANT portion of the A motor, along with part of the design was 'borrowed' from the Stereo Integrity Magnum D2. after a bit of FEA, i have some numbers and pics to show see, you could claim that the design for the mag was stolen from eD, EXCEPT for the fact that the Mag design was prototyped last summer, and the A prototyped last october/november. the only difference that i can tell are that the TP gap is slightly larger in the A, leading to 7% less BL, along with a heavier cone...which it needs because its flat and NOT as strong.

    if you'd like to check out the magnum...which costs less than the 12A, and sounds better IMO (without the overinflated performance specs as well), check out www.stereointegrity.com



    oh, PLEASE notice the xmax from FEA on the A motor. this is taken from 12A

    Param SI eD
    ------ ----- ------
    Fs: 32 27 Hz
    Qms: 4.8 4.7
    Qes: 0.41 0.42
    Qts: 0.38 0.39
    Vas: 38.5 47.3 liters
    Re: 3.6 3.6 Ohms
    Le: 6.7 6.4 mH
    Xmax: 24.0 23.7 mm one way
    Sd: 465 465 cm^2

    READ ALL THE DETAILS HERE.

    http://forum.soundillusions.net/show...308#post290308

    eric



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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Who the **** cares?

    -Alex




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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Quote Originally Posted by BiaBia
    Who the **** cares?

    -Alex
    People that wanna know the "****ing" truth...



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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    here's the advertised numbers from the 12A...

    T / S Parameters
    Qts : 0.41
    Qes : 0.45
    Qms : 4.71
    Vas : 47.27
    Sd : 0.0465 m^2
    XMag : 29.5 mm
    XSus : 26.0 mm
    XMax : 26.0 mm
    MMd : 216 g
    Re : 3.61 ohm
    Fs : 27.3 Hz
    Bl : 17.49

    eric



    WANG MOON PRODUCTIONS, inc.

    overpecker & audiomobile's biggests ANTI-fan

    CLASS 'D' AMPS ARE NOT DIGITAL!!!! YOU WILL GET FLAMED BY SOMEONE...EVEN IF ITS NOT ME.

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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    people care. personally i believe that the magnum is a far better bargain. for a little less cash you get more SPL, and in my opinion there is better sq. but then again, i dont know anything.

    i use my ears, that is insane. and the new audiocontrols seem to think that my 4 magnums are 156.1 Db good. stock battery stock alt, no charging system upgrades at all.

    what are the A's hitting?? :p




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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    sounds like a bunch of PROPOGANDA to me.

    Were did you hear that, On the internet




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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Quote Originally Posted by phoneman
    sounds like a bunch of PROPOGANDA to me.

    Were did you hear that, On the internet
    Awesome when you throw in a plug for a competitive product, don't you think?





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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    call it what you like, but im not affiliated with SI josh, and you know it. i figured the real designer deserved to have credit where credit is due.

    eric



    WANG MOON PRODUCTIONS, inc.

    overpecker & audiomobile's biggests ANTI-fan

    CLASS 'D' AMPS ARE NOT DIGITAL!!!! YOU WILL GET FLAMED BY SOMEONE...EVEN IF ITS NOT ME.

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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Quote Originally Posted by nismo
    call it what you like, but im not affiliated with SI josh, and you know it. i figured the real designer deserved to have credit where credit is due.

    eric
    Sounds more like a childish rant with very little factual evidence to your claim...

    Educative posts don't start like yours - and certainly don't focus on trying to start a product war, which you are trying to do. Especially mature cross-forum linking to try and expose the 'truth' - whatever you'd like to *think* that is...

    :thumbsup




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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Quote Originally Posted by phoneman
    sounds like a bunch of PROPOGANDA to me.

    Were did you hear that, On the internet
    If you are referring to something different than what I am about to post about, please ignore the following information.

    That is FEA analysis (Finite Element Analysis) on the SI motor and the eD motor...nothing more. There are no T/S / DUMAX #'s in there - just FEA information.

    Nismo is using FEA analysis, not random numbers.



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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Quote Originally Posted by jlaine
    This thread never even had a topic... It's a spinoff of a hissy fit because I didn't feel like wasting my moderators time on SI.net by having them have to filter through all the accusative postings that got nowhere fast.

    Nothing more...
    well Josh, it's a good thing I have more time on my hands than I would like to admit! Here we go!



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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Eric,

    do you understand the paramteres derived from 2 different test meduims?

    one dumax, one not dumax. Our LMS / Leap generations vary HUGELY from our dumax measurements (ie, listed specifications) so the room for comparison there is well... there isn't one unless your comparing them measured from the same source.

    1. we don't release any lms / leap generations.
    2. d2 hasn't been dumax'd

    2 different ways of measurement. Unless they are the same way of measuring it the basis for comparison is downright well, not worth the time it took you to type that.

    There's probably darn near a double in some parameters from one to the other method. Go one method with everything, but comparing across is downright worthless as much as it stinks.

    Just one more reason people listening to a speaker becomes that much more important and all the time people sit trying to figure out what they know from a set of this or that is well... again... not worth the time.

    I mean if you want to go crazy check out morel's older kick *** 12" speaker. You'll be too close for comfort, but since it's not the same, there just isn't much to worry about.

    Anything outside a actual measurement is just a waste of time including i plugged it into a program and this is what i got. PUT IT IN A FREAKING CAR AND LISTEN TO IT, DECIDE IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT! - caps in purpose, not yelling, just want people to see that -

    listen to it. if you like it. so be it. if you don't. so be it.

    If someone likes something you don't. so be it, who cares. Go enjoy what you like and let them have their fun.

    Ben
    That's what Ben had to say over on SIN.





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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Hehehe....something that I actually kept my mouth shut about



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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    You actually made the claim also that the A is nothing but a AudioMobile Mass with a diffferent cone as well. Shoot that into the FEA program, the Audiomobile evo-r as well, and the morel SWR-12 driver. But since I'm not inputting the information it's next to impossible for me to understand what they are getting out of it. Both of these were out long before either one of the drivers your mentioning.

    The fact is eric. The guys using FEA programs don't rely heavily on for a lot of reasons. You'll even notice the person who probably supplied that probably uses another meduim to actually 'spec' speakers. Klippel, dumax, etc etc.

    That's a fairly common practice.

    Now if you take the magic numbers aside and you consider a different surround (different compliance), different coil (different weight, windings, type), and a different suspension (different compliance, different spiders) we know you get a different speaker. I mean right there you've got plain as day differences that don't equal the same thing. Using very different parts you've come up with similar numbers.

    Please teach me how to do this I can greatly improve my K series drivers if I can figure out how to extract these numbers out of totally different parts without the ability to interact with each other the same way. This is kind of like if we just simply made the switch from 8.5" spiders to 8" spiders I know it's going to reflect a change. According to this though, it isn't. I know if I change my surround from my santoprene to the one used on the d2 it's going to cuase a change, but according to this it won't. I know if i change to a different cone it's going to have a different weight changing something, but according to this it won't. But If I can figure out how to get numbers like this from 2 obviously different speakers, I could do some darn cool things and extract some killer performance out of speakers that cost a whole lot less money for everyone.

    You take the simple fact that......... People who have heard both drivers think they sound different........ And you have the simple fact that they don't sound the same or work exactly the same. So alas, the idea might be they aren't the same.

    If they were the same speaker people wouldn't say things like i couldn't get a A loud. It'd get loud becuase it was the same. People wouldn't say things like I couldn't get that low end from a d2 in a small sealed box, becuase well, it'd have it becuase it's the same right?

    I think it's pretty absurd actually all of this. if you consider simply the above paragraph. It's pretty cut and dry people are obviouly getting different results so the numbers here someone else came up with in their FEA program away from public view are pretty shaky to say the least.

    That post I was qouted doesn't have much relevance to this exactly but I'm sure someone will nitpick at it a little.

    You can believe it or not. If you sit and listen to them and they don't have exactly the same results which people obviously are not. You'll realize your argue'ing something you yourself and others have simply disproved over and over, becuase they like one more than the other.

    I'm going to go enjoy my saturday. Actually trying to stay out of the office for once this weekend Do the same. Enjoy the speaker in your car. Have a beer, meet a pretty girl. Who knows, have a good weekend all.

    You say you want to give credit where it's due. It's already where it's due. Who thinks that the d2 and the A are even related? Except for a parts vendor? You want a A series you go to eD. You want a D2 you go to stereo integrity. It's not like either one of the companies is probably making sales comparing their speaker to the other. I know we certainly aren't. I can't imagine anyone else is becuase most people probably buying the d2 are buying it becuase they DO NOT want the A. Seems like everyones ducks are in a row and people are getting what they pay for nonetheless.

    I guess my one question though eric is how in gods name do you overinflate a spec a machine measured? You put it up there, you clamp it in, and you take what it reads. There just isn't much room for inflating something that is a dead measurement. You want a dumax report, but at the same time your calling it's measurements overinflated. If they are inflated why would you care to see it? And even furthermore, if you think one sounds better than the other, wouldn't this kind of state they aren't the same if they sound different at all? Buy the one you think sounds better, enjoy it. I hope it works great for you and I'm glad you find something you enjoy using.

    So far you've claimed we basically took someone elses idea with a flat cone on it. Said the A was the same as a d2 and a audiomobile mass. Used a FEA report to try and prove this and stated that you think they sound different at the same time. It's like 4th of July and no one knows where to go. So your using someone elses program to get these FEA measurements, and resorting to pretty harsh words to prove something it doesn't seem you yourself believe. You said you believe one sounds better 'imo' so it can't be the same.

    FYI, 12A is 270 shipped if you call it in right now. has been for the better part of the month in lue of the ME review and celebrating it. So it's not really that horribly expensive at all.

    Ben
    Last edited by kaosmoon; 10-25-2003 at 11:38 AM.



    get out of your box.

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    Re: LOOKIE HERE...eD A series is a rip off

    Also, you've got the same Sd listed. That alone seems odd as the surround is different on the two. The Sd is going to be different without question if you measure them both 1/3rd the surround, or 1/2 the surround.

    Qt measurements even ME had what around 3 or below? Our first dumax on it was I believe 4.2, and another in the high 2 range. (Has varied a bit)

    Xmax just isn't right. While the motor is good for just under 30mm on the A we all know it's going to nail the spider landing before that. With the correct spider spacer that is exactly 1" rearword, 25.4mm. The one we sent to ME unfortantly had the wrong spacer we just never thought so sit and think about that. He seemed to have good results with it anyway. With the wrong spacer spacer on there though it's less than 23.x, it's I believe 22.x.

    And if they are dwelling on simply the motor, and the motor alone WITHOUT the other parts of the speaker. Run the FEA with those other speakers motors and your results are going to be too close for comfort. I'd say it's a really good thing we don't listen to the motor, we listen to the end product of the speaker.

    Ben



    get out of your box.

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