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Reload Thread: Hey Zane. Check this out. JL VS. Kicker Head To Head. Cannot beat the facts.

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    Hey Zane. Check this out. JL VS. Kicker Head To Head. Cannot beat the facts.

    Okay. Since Zane seems to go against my theory that Kicker is better than JL, here you go: I have done a little head to head on pure facts from both sites. You can clearly see that the Kicker L7 has a extreme advantage compared to the inferior JL Audio speakers. I chose my test subjects to be 1 Kicker L7 15" and 1 JL Audio W3 15". Both are probably one of the most powerful that each company makes and also the most comparable. So here you go. Head To Head. Pure Facts.
    JL Audio Website = www.jlaudio.com
    Kicker Website = www.kicker.com
    (Check the sites if you think that my facts are incorrect)

    Challenge Number One: Watts RMS
    JL Audio 15W3 = 400 Watts RMS (Haha)
    Kicker 15L7 = 1,000 Watts RMS
    Difference = 600 Watts RMS
    Winner = Kicker 15L7 (By Far)
    Comment: I know that they underrate their products however they would 400 would be so low that it would have to increase 250% in order to match Kicker, which are underrated as well.

    Challenge Number Two: XMax
    JL Audio 15W3 = 17.1 MM
    Kicker 15L7 = 15.5 MM
    Difference = 1.6 MM
    Winner = JL Audio 15W3
    Comment: Yes I know it has more XMax but that does not mean much compared to VMax (How much air the subwoofer can move). And more air being moved equals more bass.

    Challenge Number Three: Cone Area (This was taken using the formula (Pie times (the radius squared) for the JL Audio subwoofer and the formula (Base times height) was used for he Kicker L7 subwoofer since the JL Audio is round and the Kicker L7 is square)
    JL Audio 15W3 = 176.625 Square Inches
    Kicker 15L7 = 225.000 Square Inches
    Difference = 48.375 Square Inches
    Winner = Kicker 15L7
    Comment = Due ot the square shape of the 15" Kicker, it has the same cone area as most 18" subwoofers have according to Kicker. The benefits of this is a lower frequency range and the ability to push more air.

    Challenge Number Four: VMax (Or the amount of air that the subwoofer can push) (The formula XMax times the cone area was used for this part of the analysis)
    JL Audio 15W3 = 119.221875 Cubic Inches
    Kicker 15L7 = 137.25 Cubic Inches
    Difference = 18.028125 Cubic Inches
    Winner = Kicker 15L7
    Comment = XMax is not the important thing that matters. It is just a factor of the more important thing which is VMax, which as you can see, the Kicker 15L7 has a lot more of.

    Challenge Number Five: Sensitivity (Based on 2Ohm Models)
    JL Audio 15W3 = 88.8DB
    Kicker 15L7 = 89.3DB
    Difference = 0.5DB
    Winner = Kicker 15L7
    Comment = Yet another victory for the Kicker L7.

    Other Challenges:
    Peak Wattage: Kicker 15L7 = 2,000 ; JL Audio 15W3 = N/A
    Frequency: Kicker 15L7 = 18-200Hz ; JL Audio 15W3 = N/A

    Conclusion:
    Statistically, the Kicker 15L7 outproforms JL Audio 15W3 in every way possible. Although the JL Audio 15W3 did outproform the Kicker 15L7 so far as XMax, that does not mean anything compared to the VMax of each, which the Kicker was superior in. Now by looking at all of those cold, hard facts, I dare anyone here to tell me that any 15 inch or below for the W0 - W6 series (I agree that the W7 series rocks) is better than the Kicker 15L7. You cannot.

    P.S. Yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands.







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    not to be a prick or anything, but i'm kind of sick and tired of seeing one topic have 3-4 different posts. another thing that kind of bugs me is you INSISTING that your kickers are better than everyones W3's. first things first, you know as well as i know, no one woofer is better than another in all "statistical" categories. secondly, i remember when u had ur perfects, you insisted that they were virtually the best woofers out there and you never even mentioned kicker, so i think the opinions you make are pretty biased based on the woofer you own. next, even if you believe that one company is better than another, there is no place in this hobby to put down another well-known company such as JL,
    JL Audio 15W3 = 400 Watts RMS (Haha)
    . i'm not trying to get on ur @$$ or anything, but a little respect wouldn't hurt, and arguing with someone like zane might not be the smartest thing to do, i would be petrified with the fact that i might come out looking like an @$$, but if thats a risk you're willing to take, then good luck.



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    Re: Hey Zane. Check this out. JL VS. Kicker Head To Head. Cannot beat the facts.

    Originally posted by ArcaneParadise
    Okay. Since Zane seems to go against my theory that Kicker is better than JL, here you go: I have done a little head to head on pure facts from both sites. You can clearly see that the Kicker L7 has a extreme advantage compared to the inferior JL Audio speakers.
    Yes I do question your statements of Kicker being superior to JL . The only factual area the Kicker has the advantage in is cone area- due to its square shape. Glad a head to head comparison was your challenge of choice. Now lets take into consideration some of the information you neglected- to make this comparison less flawed.

    I chose my test subjects to be 1 Kicker L7 15" and 1 JL Audio W3 15". Both are probably one of the most powerful that each company makes and also the most comparable. So here you go. Head To Head. Pure Facts.
    JL Audio Website = www.jlaudio.com
    Kicker Website = www.kicker.com
    (Check the sites if you think that my facts are incorrect)
    Allthough the specs of the 15W3 and the L7 are similar- consider this- you are still taking Kickers "Best" against JL Audio's 3rd "Best."

    W7, W6, W3. This allready de-values this challenge. However, lets roll with it.......
    Challenge Number One: Watts RMS
    JL Audio 15W3 = 400 Watts RMS (Haha)
    Kicker 15L7 = 1,000 Watts RMS
    Difference = 600 Watts RMS
    Winner = Kicker 15L7 (By Far)
    Comment: I know that they underrate their products however they would 400 would be so low that it would have to increase 250% in order to match Kicker, which are underrated as well.
    Once again with the watts bit. As several of us here have allready mentioned, JL Audio does not use the same powerhandling ratings that kicker does. JL has ALWAYS rated thier subs super conservatively to ensure that they can always handle thier rated power. Kicker on the other hand has typically over-rated thier products, exaggerating thier power handling thus to further appeal to SPL entusiasts. Typically we all can safely assume that Peak power is RMS x 2, however- with substandard manufaturer ratings- this is not always correct. If you would attend some IASCA, USAC, DbDRAG, events- you will find that a 15w3 is capable of far more than 800 watts peak. Could also be a reason that I continuously pushed a pair of JL 12w0's(4 ohm SVC(RMS is125 watts- which would mean 300 peak watts according to the RMSx2 rule. These were driven with a Rockford BD1000.1(1000watts x 1 @2ohms mono). Thats 400 watts more than the peak 600 that the JL w0's say! And of course, RF has also been one to underrate thier amplifiers significantly- thus thier popularity and inconsistant info between thier Stated power rating and the actual power rating on thier birthsheet. Needless to say, my w0's had no trouble taking the extra 400+ watts, and could have easily taken quite a bit more. Now wait a minute- does this mean that speaker power ratings are also contingent upon thier test amp? You bettcha! - And since each manufacturer uses a non standard test amp- how can a true power rating be formed of the speaker?

    Power ratings are a general guide only, there are too many variables to provide an always accurate rating.

    So in this case- Challenge 1 means moot. Null and void.


    Challenge Number Two: XMax
    JL Audio 15W3 = 17.1 MM
    Kicker 15L7 = 15.5 MM
    Difference = 1.6 MM
    Winner = JL Audio 15W3
    Comment: Yes I know it has more XMax but that does not mean much compared to VMax (How much air the subwoofer can move). And more air being moved equals more bass.


    XMAX= linear excursion-

    This should more accurately be measured on the DUMAX terms of Xsus and Xmag- as they are more accurate in determining average Xmax of a speaker.

    Xsus->Excursion limit due to the driver's suspension. Xsus is defined as the point at which the compliance of the suspension has decreased to 25% of the value at the cone's rest position.

    Xmag->Excursion limit due to the magnetic limitations of the driver's motor. Xmag is defined as the displacement at which the BL product has fallen to 70% of its value at the cone's rest position.

    Thus Xmax is derrived as the shorter of the Xmag and Xsus values, in each direction of cone travel.

    For Example:

    Measuring a speaker:

    Xmag (forward) = 14 mm
    Xmag (reverse) = 8 mm
    Xsus (forward) = 14 mm
    Xsus (reverse) = 14 mm

    Then with this calculation:

    Xmax (forward) = min(14,8) = 8 mm
    Xmax (reverse) = min(14,14) = 14 mm
    Xmax (average) = (14+8)/2 = 11 mm

    This speakers average XMAX based on the DUMAX measurments would be published as 11mm.

    As we both have allready pointed out, the JL 15W3 does have the advantage in this area. Since actual VMax is contingent upon excursion (XMAX)- one could safely say that the higher excursion model is capable of moving more air. Now obviously the larger cone area of the kicker is the variable here, larger objects will move more air. However, as it is not standard (much like JL's conservative power ratings- and several amplifier manufacturers guilt of the same course.) The comparison again becomes flawed.

    Now since JL has greater Xmax and Kicker has Greater Cone area- this would even things out. This challenge becomes null and void.


    Challenge Number Three: Cone Area (This was taken using the formula (Pie times (the radius squared) for the JL Audio subwoofer and the formula (Base times height) was used for he Kicker L7 subwoofer since the JL Audio is round and the Kicker L7 is square)
    JL Audio 15W3 = 176.625 Square Inches
    Kicker 15L7 = 225.000 Square Inches
    Difference = 48.375 Square Inches
    Winner = Kicker 15L7
    Comment = Due ot the square shape of the 15" Kicker, it has the same cone area as most 18" subwoofers have according to Kicker. The benefits of this is a lower frequency range and the ability to push more air.


    Agreeing with the 18" similarity of the L7 due to the square shape. Which in theory- should provide lower bass extension and response. However this leads me to question why the L7 ony has a frequency response of 18hz-100hz. As well as an Fs of 22.2hz.

    This compared to the 15w3's frequency response of 18-250hz and an Fs of 21.3Hz.

    So in theory it would sound allright- however- head to head the only advantage of the Kicker is larger cone area. The other claims of lower frequency range are moot with regards to the direct comparison. Pushing more air is likely- due to the larger cone area- however this can also be refered to in Challenge 2- Vmax is contingent upon Xmax.

    Once again, challenge 3 is null and void.


    Challenge Number Four: VMax (Or the amount of air that the subwoofer can push) (The formula XMax times the cone area was used for this part of the analysis)
    JL Audio 15W3 = 119.221875 Cubic Inches
    Kicker 15L7 = 137.25 Cubic Inches
    Difference = 18.028125 Cubic Inches
    Winner = Kicker 15L7
    Comment = XMax is not the important thing that matters. It is just a factor of the more important thing which is VMax, which as you can see, the Kicker 15L7 has a lot more of.
    All you have shown is that the L7 Has a larger cone area- we know this, thanks! As for the Vmax theory- refer to challenges 2 and 3. Vmax is not a standard Thiele/Small measurement as Xsus and Xmag are more accurate.

    The only typical T/S parameters measured are: Qts, Qms, Qes, Re, Res, Fs, BL, SPL, Vas, Cms, Mms, Sd, Xmax.

    So again, challenge # 4 becomes null and void.


    Challenge Number Five: Sensitivity (Based on 2Ohm Models)
    JL Audio 15W3 = 88.8DB
    Kicker 15L7 = 89.3DB
    Difference = 0.5DB
    Winner = Kicker 15L7
    Comment = Yet another victory for the Kicker L7.
    This is correct. Allthough at 0.5db, most would not notice any discernable difference.

    Other Challenges:
    Peak Wattage: Kicker 15L7 = 2,000 ; JL Audio 15W3 = N/A
    Frequency: Kicker 15L7 = 18-200Hz ; JL Audio 15W3 = N/A
    In other words- we are repeating challenges 1 and 3.


    Conclusion:
    Statistically, the Kicker 15L7 outproforms JL Audio 15W3 in every way possible. Although the JL Audio 15W3 did outproform the Kicker 15L7 so far as XMax, that does not mean anything compared to the VMax of each, which the Kicker was superior in. Now by looking at all of those cold, hard facts, I dare anyone here to tell me that any 15 inch or below for the W0 - W6 series (I agree that the W7 series rocks) is better than the Kicker 15L7. You cannot.
    Accepted dare. Called dare. Proved Dare is also moot point. Cold hard facts are based on Actual T/S Parameters and real world use. Not the variables and inconsistencies of speaker manufacturers. Fact is, the real cold hard facts pertaining to each driver would best be obtained by David Clarks DUMAX testing machine. It is by far the most accurate means available today. While manufacturer tests are derived from DUMAX tests (some-not all) they are still no genuinely reflecting the actual DUMAX results.

    For more information about the DUMAX test go here:

    http://www.dlcdesignaudio.com/index.html

    P.S. Yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands.
    You Lucky S*B!! he he he! :p

    take it easy,
    -zane
    Last edited by zane; 02-04-2002 at 03:34 AM.





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    DUMAX

    For those curious about what the DUMAX is:



    Nifty huh?

    Take it easy,
    -zane





    Webslave - www.SoundwavesCS.net


    "The man who goes alone can start today; but he who travels with another must wait till that other is ready."

    - Henry David Thoreau


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    someone got owned..

    *DING*
    WINNER = ZANE



    New and Improved system:
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    All adding up to a new bigger number...can't wait for the new season.

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    arguing with someone like zane might not be the smartest thing to do, i would be petrified with the fact that i might come out looking like an @$$
    and i stand correct



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    cuss

    **** zane that was f*ckin RAD! also it was interesting to learn all that stuff u said...u really are some kinda audio god to us measly pea-ons of the car audio world...




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    Zane, you sure know your ****, and I agree with your point on the w3 vs. L7 isnt really an equal comparison, but I still love my kickers and think they are the best sub.




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    zane you are the ****ing man. McCraperson is right your a ****in audio god.




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    Sorry

    All I can really say is "Sorry!!!". I found my two errors. I had gone against two of the most cardinal car audio rules. Number One: There is no better speaker. Only one that fits a situation perfectly and one that suits the buyers listening needs. In some ways the Kicker can suit some peoples needs, and in some ways the JL Audio can suit some peoples needs. In my case I prefer the Kicker. Also, these two subwoofers, like you definately proved, are not comparable. I also agree that JL does make a darn good speaker. The other rule I went against... Number Two: Never doubt Zane! And if you do you will definately be sorry. I know I am!!! You sure know your stuff and you have proof to back it up. I went out on a limb... and took a head first dive. Sorry Zane & sorry everyone. At least I came out learning something.




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    don't be sorry

    **** dude, that whole thing with zane lately has been awesome! i mean, zane da man, but sh*# atleast u tried! more importantly is that everybody who kept up learned something( i did)! u caught alot of flack from alot of people ( from me too), but **** it was fun! can we do it again?


    LEGACY RULES!!!!!


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    where can i get a dumax? that would look sweet next to my gun cabinet!! tell people it was a torture chamber!!!



    oh yea, Arcane, i told u xmas helps to make up for cone area!!!!


    sorry, had to get that one in!!!



    Quote Originally Posted by lilmaniac2
    Your circles look like something a HMO doctor would do to a **** job ....
    ^^^ speaking about cbfryman's jigsaw ability




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    Yep

    Thanks MMRay. And yes... Thank you for telling me that the XMax makes up for cone area. And for everyone...
    DING
    DING
    DING
    *Update*!!!
    Today I went to my local car audio dealer and went to negotiate prices. I'm going to be getting 2 Kicker 15L7s and a Kicker 1200.1 amp (It's actual output is about 2000 watts!!!) and it is about 3 feet long!!! It is a beast! The dealer told me that my system was going to be good enough that he was going to ask Kicker if they could sponser me. (How cool that would be...). Anyways. My main point was that I wanted to listen to some setups that they were installing (preferably the Solo-Barics). So he took me outside and showed me a Chevy Tahoe with 2 Kicker 12L7s both in one box, and... Oh My... Those things hurt!!! And it rattled everything in the store. I could seriously not believe what they were capable of. Even after my extensive research, I was suprised myself. Right now I have 2 10" Infinity Perfects and I thought those were pretty good. Jeez... The Solo's put my Infinity's to utter shame. And they were only 12's!!! I have also heard myself the JL 12W3s. And IN MY OPINION, I thought it was a hands down Kicker victory. Now this is just by going according to ear. I am not saying that Kickers are better and I darn well do not want to get into another controversy with Zane (because he owns all of us) but I am just saying that they sounded better to me. Just hearing those are making me itch to get my Solo's. And trust me.... When I do I will give you all a full lengtha, extensive, humongous review!!!




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    Re: Yep

    Originally posted by ArcaneParadise
    I am not saying that Kickers are better and I darn well do not want to get into another controversy with Zane (because he owns all of us) but I am just saying that they sounded better to me. Just hearing those are making me itch to get my Solo's. And trust me.... When I do I will give you all a full lengtha, extensive, humongous review!!!

    That is what matters - what your own ears say! When it comes down to it; it is simply a matter of preference. I personally think that the JL's sound smoother while the kickers sound a bit more edgy.- Again- that is only my opinion.

    I have listened to quite a few woofers in my day- and for those in the same boat, I am sure you would agree that it be few and far between- only a small handfull of woofers actually stand out where a majority agree about its actual sound and output.

    One such woofer right now is Eclipses 88120 Aluminum cone 12". The overall opinion of this woofer is posatively shared by the majority-thus recognizing the woofers incredible capabilities.

    Kicker and JL Audio have also had thier place in that handfull with Kickers original Competition series and JL Audio's W6 series.

    Looks as if we will just have to wait to see what the next one will be.

    Time for a bit of fun- just base this on your own opinion and what you know. What are your predictions for the next "select" handful of Spectacular woofers.

    I will start by offering the following:
    Adire Audio's new Brahma 12" woofer
    Audiomobiles MASS 12" woofer

    A general over view shows that these subs are strongly designed and offer a well rounded output.

    You can learn more about these woofers here:

    Adire Audio Brahma 12"

    http://www.adireaudio.com/cd/brahma_series.htm

    Audiomobile MASS 12"
    http://www.audiomobileinc.com/masssubs.htm

    Now whats everyone else think?

    Take it easy,

    -zane





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    zane's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mrray13
    where can i get a dumax? that would look sweet next to my gun cabinet!! tell people it was a torture chamber!

    I'll give you my extra 1......

    yeah, I seriously doubt that many have enough "c" notes for that puppy! If memory serves correctly- the DUMAX was valued at over $100k. Not sure exactly if that was the figure- however I do know that it was up there quite a ways. Doesnt really surprise me though- as accurate as it is. Precision and excellence do bring a price with them.


    I'd put it next to the suit of armor mabey, it may pack a little more visual flare- especially if the suit of armor has an axe!

    take it easy,
    -zane





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