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    Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    My system is currently in a 2008 Nissan Titan. The biggest challeng with this vihicle is stagiing. The door speakers (JL ZR 5 x 7) are very low in the door. There are speaker spot on the dash and are currently the JL 3.5 C2's. My biggest challenge is the imaging due to how low the door speaker are. I need a true mid range speaker to place in these dash locations that will help bring this sound stage up. Please give me opinions on the following:

    Hybrid Audio Legatia L3
    Morel CDM-54
    Morel CDM-88
    CDT ED-3
    CDT ES-03

    Again, I plan on runnin thes from 150-5000 range. I am currently putting about 75RMS into the JL's so they need to handle come power.

    Thanks







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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    THe legatia L3's work great in the dash. But I would look at changing your intended crossover points. Using the door speakers as midbass would allow you to raise the low xover point on the mid. Also with the L3's you can take your xover point a lot higher on the top end. This would give you one set of drivers playing the frequency range that has imaging cues



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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    If you need dash mounted midrange, how is it that kick panels are so effective? Given that those are mounted lower than any door speaker?

    You're trying to attack this situation all wrong. Your ear cannot possibly tell how high or low a speaker is mounted below 1khz. Which means, if you have tweeters mounted down low, THEY are the cause of your low stage, not the midrange.

    Here's my thoughts. Stick to 2-way, and since you already have a 3" cutout in your dash, you can fit basically any large format tweeter on the market. Start over at madisound.com, or parts-express.com and you can basically pick any tweeter you want and it will fit with little to no modification.



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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    I should clarify one thing. I have a pair of JL XR Tweeters mounted in the A-Pillar next to the JL C2's. So i have taken some steps to help the imaging of the frequncies 1K and higher. I really am looking for that true midrange and bringing the focal of that freqency into better staging.




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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    You have a set of 5x7s in the doors, 3" in the dash, and tweeters on the a-pillars. Do you have any sort of processing available to you that can help tame that beast?



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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    One more important piece of info is that i have the bit one running in this system with dedicated channels for the ZR 5 x 7, XR Tweeters and C2's and can control with crossovers, gain and time delay for each speaker. I am a little limited with the ZR as i am still employing their supplied crossovers.




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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    Hey, by all means you have the processing for it, why not.

    Oh, and out of what you listed above, call me crazy but it would be the CDT ES-03s. I had a set of L3s installed in my a-pillars for a few months, and did a direct drop in comparison with the ES-03s, and they sound identical. Don't waste your money on HAT, not worth it IMO.

    PS, I have a set of ES-03s for sale, 10 minutes use time, 50 shipped.



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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    I don't see how the 5x7s will be bring the stage down unless you have door resonances or the 5x7 is kicking at your legs... or they're crossed over too high.

    I would think your problem is due to phasing issues, which changing speakers will not fix.




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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    Quote Originally Posted by James Bang View Post
    I don't see how the 5x7s will be bring the stage down unless you have door resonances or the 5x7 is kicking at your legs... or they're crossed over too high.

    I would think your problem is due to phasing issues, which changing speakers will not fix.
    Exactly this.

    Most people have never truly heard a coherent phase lock between two drivers, let alone three. Once you have perfect phase behavior in the transition between drivers your attention is no longer drawn to the drivers themselves unless, as James said, you have a parasitic resonance. Frequency response anomalies could also contribute to attention being drawn to individual drivers but hopefully you've got the EQ part down.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    Quote Originally Posted by bass_lover1 View Post
    If you need dash mounted midrange, how is it that kick panels are so effective? Given that those are mounted lower than any door speaker?

    You're trying to attack this situation all wrong. Your ear cannot possibly tell how high or low a speaker is mounted below 1khz. Which means, if you have tweeters mounted down low, THEY are the cause of your low stage, not the midrange.

    Here's my thoughts. Stick to 2-way, and since you already have a 3" cutout in your dash, you can fit basically any large format tweeter on the market. Start over at madisound.com, or parts-express.com and you can basically pick any tweeter you want and it will fit with little to no modification.
    I could subscribe to that if you were talking about a single tone but music carries complex waveforms with rich harmonics so it's not as simple as that.

    I would definitely agree with sticking to a two-way though.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaonzo View Post
    I could subscribe to that if you were talking about a single tone but music carries complex waveforms with rich harmonics so it's not as simple as that.

    I would definitely agree with sticking to a two-way though.
    True, while obviously not set it stone because everyone hears differently, it is pretty accurate.



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    Re: Mid Range Speaker for Imaging

    Quote Originally Posted by Heath View Post
    My system is currently in a 2008 Nissan Titan. The biggest challeng with this vihicle is stagiing. The door speakers (JL ZR 5 x 7) are very low in the door. There are speaker spot on the dash and are currently the JL 3.5 C2's. My biggest challenge is the imaging due to how low the door speaker are. I need a true mid range speaker to place in these dash locations that will help bring this sound stage up. Please give me opinions on the following:

    Hybrid Audio Legatia L3
    Morel CDM-54
    Morel CDM-88
    CDT ED-3
    CDT ES-03

    Again, I plan on runnin thes from 150-5000 range. I am currently putting about 75RMS into the JL's so they need to handle come power.

    Thanks
    Getting a good soundstage isn't rocket science. Put the midranges as far and wide as possible. The height of the stage is determined mostly by the height of the tweeters, so higher is better.

    You don't need to put midranges on your dash to bring the stage up. I *do* have midranges on *my* dash, but I did that for power handling reasons. (I also have mids down low.)

    Putting mids on my dash brought the stage forward - it was deeper with midranges only down low. I made a tradeoff for power handling.

    Whatever you do, DON'T use more than one tweeter per side. That destroys all soundstage cues. If you DO use multiple midranges, make sure they're all the same distance. Due to something called the Haas effect, the closest midrange will "pull" the stage forward.

    The lower you go in frequency, the easier it is to use multiple speakers, because the wavelengths are getting longer. But if you are going to use multiple speakers to cover the same frequency, you have to plan it very carefully.




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