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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
    Again, you missed the point. Having the midbass (any midbass, not just those Kickers) in the rear deck will trash the sound stage. If something like that is what you're looking for on a budget, you'd be better served by putting a set of 4" coaxes in the kicks and use the door locations for a dedicated midbass driver.


    i put my mid-basses behind me because i was too lazy to fabricate door pods for them, it sounds like poo







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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
    It appears that you misread the post that you quoted specifically the "without" in there.
    so i did, you may kill me now....no please! i read fast right before work. i apologize sincerely to all. i'm walking away now.



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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by James Bang View Post
    too hell with rear fill.
    I'd rather have my midbass up front, along with my highs and lows.
    been into audio for about 17 years and will never understand this. its like having a home theater system with 2 speakers. to me front and rear is just as important as left and right. might as well be mono imo. maybe its just a few of us that think this way idk.



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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool4me View Post
    been into audio for about 17 years and will never understand this. its like having a home theater system with 2 speakers. to me front and rear is just as important as left and right. might as well be mono imo. maybe its just a few of us that think this way idk.
    do you drive your home theater down the highway at 70 mph? also, do you have at least 6' between your front and rear speakers?

    if the answer to either of these is "no", you have succesfully spotted the difference between your home theater and your car stereo, and hopefully gotten some insight as to why most everyone thinks rear fill is a bad idea in a car stereo application




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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Hmm, I have my midbass behind me, and after reading through this thread now I know why I am not completely satisfied with my sound. Thanks Guys



    Feedback Thread - http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313522

  6. #51
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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
    Again, you missed the point. Having the midbass (any midbass, not just those Kickers) in the rear deck will trash the sound stage. If something like that is what you're looking for on a budget, you'd be better served by putting a set of 4" coaxes in the kicks and use the door locations for a dedicated midbass driver.
    well i ususally put a 4 inch mid in the rear as well as midbass. correct me if im wrong but in my experience i found that the frequencies that i was trying to improve were for the most part at a range that was non directional. not saying that front stage is not important because it is. good front stage is one of the most important.

    as for coax speakers. nope. comp sets or plates for me. and as for kick panels. no! if there is nowhere to have speaker in the front then i would. the doors and or dash seem to work great for me. kicks are tacky. they usually get kicked too, hence the name lol. i would cut another hole in my door first, if i needed more front stage.



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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    do you drive your home theater down the highway at 70 mph? also, do you have at least 6' between your front and rear speakers?

    if the answer to either of these is "no", you have succesfully spotted the difference between your home theater and your car stereo, and hopefully gotten some insight as to why most everyone thinks rear fill is a bad idea in a car stereo application
    no to the first question and yes to the second. but im confused on the questions. wondering what they have to do with front/rear seperation?



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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Bored.....

    So on topic:

    Re: Localization of subwoofer
    - Given the appropriate lowpass filter, a subwoofer's direct sound is not easy to locate. It's the reflected sound that is a concern: it typically excites resonance in various parts of the vehicle that have considerable storage problems. From this, it can be quite easy to localize a subwoofer. Thus, it is good to cross your mids as low as possible (or bring a subwoofer up front).

    Re: Left/Right vs Front/Back
    - If there were front/back information available in a stereo recording, I would agree that it was as important. However, there simply isn't. There are circumstances in which it can be important, but never as important as L/R.

    Re: Why midbass?
    - Typical 6.5" midrange drivers are virtually devoid of quality midbass output. A lot of drivers out there should not even be used below 100 Hz (particularly in those pre-made component sets that so many people use). So in the rare event that someone has designed a quality driver with good midbass, it is worth noting. Let's not forget that there is a lot of fundamental and second or third order harmonic information below 200 Hz.

    Re: The use of rear fill
    - This is a long one. First, space up front is limited. Is it the easiest location to put an 8" or larger midbass? Definitely not. So how do we achieve that visceral output from the midbass that is so enjoyable? The only option left is to find a spot in the rear (typically rear deck in sedans).

    Concerns about localization are valid. But it is a complex issue. In terms of stage width (ie. localization along the horizontal axis), there are two key concerns. They are ITD (differences in arrival times) and IID (differences in SPL). It should be noted that ITD is a dominant effect below 1-2 kHz and IID is a dominant effect above that. There is some overlap, of course.

    But there is something very important in this particular argument: it's called the Haas Effect, named after the German Helmut Haas. Basically, it says that if the difference in arrival times between two sources with the same material is less than 25-35 ms, then the perception of the latter of the two sources is suppressed. Here is where Time Alignment comes in really handy: if you can't account for this physically, you can electronically delay the front speakers to make sure the difference between front and rear is less than the Haas Effect....and thus, the rear speakers should be hard to locate.

    Of course, the concept is just cut and dry. Since we localize using ITD at low frequencies, everything is fine (for the most part) in the midrange and midbass frequencies. However, at high frequencies, we use IID to localize. The addition of a second source creates a comb filtering effect, ie. dips and nulls are created in SPL. This isn't a big deal for low frequencies, but it directly affects our localization along the horizontal axis at upper frequencies.

    So in short, we should draw the conclusion that the addition of a second source in the rear is not a big deal at low frequencies if we manage the Haas Effect appropriately. However, it can be detrimental in localization in the treble. And although it doesn't affect the localization at low frequencies, the creation of peaks and nulls in SPL at low frequencies is still a problem if an even, accurate response is the goal. Of course, the use of an EQ goes a long way here...at least localization isn't a problem.

    Re: Is midbass in the rear practically realizable?
    - It is important that conclusions we draw in theory are realizable in practice, otherwise the theory is inaccurate. And if you look around, there are a number of installs that either use multiple midbass or midbass in the rear (or both) with great success. Off the top of my head, there are some guys you might have heard of known as SpeakerWorks who have had great success using midbass in the rear.

    It isn't a tactic that is used often because it is still widely misunderstood, but offers great potential. Imagine, for a moment, that you have a small 6.5" driver up front. You play it down to the crossover point but obviously lack the output you're looking for. Good news! You may keep it in the current bandwidth, add large midbass drivers in the rear, keep the difference in front/rear arrival times below 30 ms, lowpass below the frequencies at which IID becomes prominent, EQ out any unevenness, and gain output with no effects on localization. Much like the use of a subwoofer in the rear, it is important to minimize resonance of surrounding panels. It's complicated but the result is worthwhile.




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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool4me View Post
    been into audio for about 17 years and will never understand this. its like having a home theater system with 2 speakers. to me front and rear is just as important as left and right. might as well be mono imo. maybe its just a few of us that think this way idk.
    I have to take issue (call BS) on this. First off we are talking about two-channel systems, not 5.1 surround systems. And even if we *were* talking 5.1 surround, would you take the midrange drivers out of your center and front L/R channels and mount them in boxes behind you? Of course not. That's what is being discussed here...




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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Great thread here. I finally learned why my front stage *****... I need m0re midbass!

    Thanks guys.. time to spend my next paycheck on re-doing my front stage.



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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    If you have experienced real stereo imaging you will understand how significant it can be. Adding rear channels WILL localize sounds since we cannot perceive front to rear imaging. Imaging is a psychoacoustic effect made possible because we have two ears that process sounds independently but combine the inputs to create the image. The "phantom center" effect cannot be duplicated as a "phantom side" channel by front and rear speakers. It would just sound like a speaker in the front and one in the back.




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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by dwc View Post
    I have to take issue (call BS) on this. First off we are talking about two-channel systems, not 5.1 surround systems. And even if we *were* talking 5.1 surround, would you take the midrange drivers out of your center and front L/R channels and mount them in boxes behind you? Of course not. That's what is being discussed here...
    i was not saying we arent, just saying it makes as much sence to me. rear fill to me is just as improtant. not as important to other people but you will have that. some like it some dont. havent seen many sq comp systems with no rear fill. but i think we are somewhere around here, quoted from above....


    It is important that conclusions we draw in theory are realizable in practice, otherwise the theory is inaccurate. And if you look around, there are a number of installs that either use multiple midbass or midbass in the rear (or both) with great success. Off the top of my head, there are some guys you might have heard of known as SpeakerWorks who have had great success using midbass in the rear.

    It isn't a tactic that is used often because it is still widely misunderstood, but offers great potential. Imagine, for a moment, that you have a small 6.5" driver up front. You play it down to the crossover point but obviously lack the output you're looking for. Good news! You may keep it in the current bandwidth, add large midbass drivers in the rear, keep the difference in front/rear arrival times below 30 ms, lowpass below the frequencies at which IID becomes prominent, EQ out any unevenness, and gain output with no effects on localization. Much like the use of a subwoofer in the rear, it is important to minimize resonance of surrounding panels. It's complicated but the result is worthwhile.



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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Outside of a true line source array, multiple sources of the same frequency will destroy stereo imaging. It's that simple. Doesn't matter how much you delay or attentuate the channels.




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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianChia View Post
    Outside of a true line source array, multiple sources of the same frequency will destroy stereo imaging. It's that simple. Doesn't matter how much you delay or attentuate the channels.
    That is your opinion and differs with many. Aside from the vehicles (and homes and professional applications) where it has been used successfully.

    If you follow the steps outlined, I think you will feel differently. Have you tried this? Have you listened to anything using a similar setup? Do you have information that directly disproves what I have outlined above?

    Pretty sure there's an AES paper on it, too. Give me a minute to look.




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    Re: what does midbass have to do with it????

    "If you have experienced real stereo imaging..."

    Nope, never. Thanks for the contribution.

    "Imaging is a psychoacoustic effect."

    Yeah, and the Haas effect is a part of that.

    edit: I want to be clear that I am not talking about the creation of a phantom center channel just with mids in the rear and tweeters in the front. For the Haas effect to be relevant, there must also be a source in the front covering a bandwidth at least equal to that of the source in the rear. I am talking about the use of rear fill to enhance output with minimal degradation to the imaging generated along the horizontal axis from the sources in the front.




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