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  1. #1
    Black_Jesus's Avatar
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    wow...

    can this guy get any dumber

    NOTE: this is in response to the post by Black_Jesus
    said by Black_Jesus : thats bullsh1t... its not underpowering speakers that blows them, its idiots who dont know what they are doing. technically everytime you turn down your headunit volume, or volume on anything you are sending LESS power to the speaker...

    underpowering does *NOT* kill speakers

    idiots with gain knobs or too much of their parents money with no knowledge do
    Sorry dude, but underpowering speakers will MORE likely kill them than overpowering them. All speakers need dampening to control the movement of the voicecoil. There are two types of dampening, mechanical and electrical (Qm and Qe). Mechanical dampening comes from the box that the speaker is mounted in and from the spider that mounts the cone to the speaker's frame. Most midrange and especially tweeters are mounted free air, and so they rely mostly on electrical dampening to control the voicecoil.

    If a speaker does not have enough electrical dampening, as the amp pushes the voicecoil outward, there will not be enough reserve power to pull the coil back in. Then when the next note hits, the coil will already be partially extended and will be pushed outward again. This will overextend the coil and will cause the speaker to reach it's physical limit (excursion). The speaker will clip and the coil will be damaged. Also because the coil is constantly fighting a poorly formed magnetic field from a weak amp, the coil will overheat as well. This is like taking a fan motor and holding it so that it can't move. The motor will overheat and damage itself. Releasing the motor and allowing it to spin will let it cool back down.

    So, YES underpowering a speaker is the WORST thing you can do to blow it. Overpowering the speaker is really not that bad unless done to an extreme. One time I took an MTX thunder amp and bridged it, sending 250watts to a factory paper cone door speaker. I turned it up all the way before distortion and the speaker never blew. This is because the only way you can damage a speaker by overpowering is to run too much current through the voicecoil windings to actually cause them to melt. This is very hard to do. If a speaker is overpowered, it will still usually last because the amp has more than enough power to pull the cone back in before the next note.




    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





    NOTE: this is in response to the post by Black_Jesus
    said by Black_Jesus : technically everytime you turn down your headunit volume, or volume on anything you are sending LESS power to the speaker...

    underpowering does *NOT* kill speakers
    Have to add one more note. Turning down the gain is not the same as turning down the wattage. When you turn down an amps gain, you are attenuating the signal from 0dB. 0db is the point from where the amp is fully operational and is putting out its full rated power. When you turn down the gain, you are limiting the signal that the amp has to amplify. So instead of amplifying a 0dB signal (unity gain) you are amplifying a weaker signal.

    Anyway the amp is still putting out it's full power and still has all the reserve it needs to dampen the speakers.
    If the amp is rated with a signal/noise ratio of 100dB, then that means that when turned on it will output 1dB of noise (hiss). This never changes. As you increase the input by turning up your headunit's volume, you are adding signal to the mix. Now you will have 100dB of signal(music) and still 1db of noise. The amp is fully amplifying all the time. Turning down the volume only limits what signal it has to amplify. It does not limit the wattage that the amp has to produce. Only when you turn up the signal demanding more watts than the amp can produce cleanly will you start to damage speakers. That is why it is ALWAYS better to buy an amp that is AT LEAST as powerful as the speakers that it is driving.

    A speaker's wattage is more like a measure of how much electrical dampening that the speaker requires to stay clean. That's why big subwoofers have such high power handling. They use soft surrounds and spiders and are mounted in a vented box to give them VERY LITTLE mechanical dampening. They require a large amp to provide dampening through electrical means instead.

    Usually what blows speakers is someone who buys one of those 5000watt amps for 30 dollars and under-powers the speakers because the amp was falsely advertised. Also setting the gains too high to compensate for low volume pushes the amp beyond its reserve capability and will cause the speaker to lose control. Not running a crossover is probably next on the list of things that kill a speaker. You can't run 10kHz signals to a subwoofer. The speaker can't vibrate that fast and will simply overheat. Also running bass to the tweeters will kill them as well because you force the tweeter's voicecoil to extrude past its limit and may actually blow the driver off the housing it sits in.







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    Re: wow...

    ?

    1. the link dosent work
    2. i bet he can get dumber




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    Re: wow...

    less power does not blow speakers or else nobody could listen to a head unit....




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    Re: wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by supa_c
    ?

    1. the link dosent work
    2. i bet he can get dumber
    link wasnt meant to work, all u need is posted here in the thread, the forum itself is private




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    Re: wow...

    anyways.
    he is still dumb.




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    Re: wow...

    here is a new reply from him

    Your understand of electronics and mechanics is amazingly lacking yet you have the audacity to call people *********, etc. for not agreeing with you. This is science we're talking about here.

    I've built amps and have tested waveforms. Your argument about thermal overload is rarely an issue in blowing a speaker. It is usually uncontrollable distortion due to not providing enough power to electrically dampen the speaker. The cone flexes and distorts and the voicecoil ends up smacking the guide and causes it to break down. And YES you can destroy a 600 watt sub with a 40 watt amp.

    All amps are set for 0dB gain. They output or have the potential to output their wattage regardless of the gain setting. The gain setting on the amp is for the PREAMP section. This matches the impedance and the incoming voltages to what the amp was designed for in order to produce a 0dB signal cleanly and efficiently. If you buy an amp and do not set its gain correctly, you will overheat the amp because you are driving the transistors with too high of a control voltage. The transistor acts as a switch to allow more current flow. A MOSFET can vary the current that passes through it. Once you have FULLY TURNED ON THE TRANSISTOR by maximizing the control flow, that is all the transistor is able to pass. In other words, once you turn on a switch fully, it is on and the maximum current flow is passing through the transistor to the speakers. Passing more current in the form of turning up the amps gain will only cause the transistor to thermally break down and make it less efficient in switching the current. Then you will start to drain the capacitors within the amp and will cause voltage fluctuations. As the amp tries to pass more current than it is designed for, the voltage going to the speakers begins to drop. This causes a reduction in the magnetic field around the voicecoil and the speaker begins to lose definition. The coil begins to sloppily travel back and forth in a weak high current field and it will both overheat and cause the coil to scrape the wave guide in the speaker. This is because as the voltage drops, the field begins to change shape. The pull is no longer up and down but begins to be from side to side as well. The coil scrapes (speaker clipping) and the speaker is damaged.

    So in other words, you just blew a 600watt speaker with a 40 watt amp.




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    Re: wow...

    not enough pwoer CAN destroy a sub.... although the issue is NOT the amount of power it is the user, drving the amp into clip,

    the only time i can see not enough power being a factor is like putting 20 wats on a speaker the is made to handle 2000 rms if it was to get hot it would have trouble cooling it's self.



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    Re: wow...

    yea i know what u mean os, but simply turning everything down, say a whole system was hooked up, tuned properly, etc. and u turn it down, are u saying that the system would blow? of course not.

    so that would basically be.. driving a 2000w sub with a 20w amp, assuming the amp wasnt clipping, and hell even if it was i doubt it could make enough power to damage the coils, the amp couldnt blow it

    especially if it was in any type of proper enclosure




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    Re: wow...

    my point exactly



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    Re: wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
    my point exactly
    u da man




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    Re: wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
    not enough pwoer CAN destroy a sub.... although the issue is NOT the amount of power it is the user, drving the amp into clip,

    the only time i can see not enough power being a factor is like putting 20 wats on a speaker the is made to handle 2000 rms if it was to get hot it would have trouble cooling it's self.
    That is exactly right. What I said in my post was that if you overload a transistors switching circuit, you will cause the amp to clip and will damage the speaker. I don't know what this guys problem is.

    The question was wether or not underpowering a speaker can damage it and the answer is yes. It is the most common way people damage speakers. Pushing an amp to clipping will cause the cone to distort because the speaker is not getting enough Qe to dampen its travel. This happens more commonly on underpowering speakers because the user is often required to overdrive the amp in order to get the SPL out of the speaker. Amp clipping causes thermal breakdown and mechanical clipping of the voicecoil. Overpowering a speaker is not as dangerous because the amp will maintain the voicecoils travel in a controlled manner and therefore not cause it to heat up as much as underpowered amp clipping. Only in extreme cases of overpowering such as melting the tinsel leads will a speaker be damaged. There is also the possibility of bottoming the voicecoil against the wave guide as well but is less likely because the amp will have the reserve to push the coil back up to the neutral position before it has to drop down again. It is more common to mechanically clip a speaker if the amp is underpowered and the voicecoil drops down too far before the amp has a chance to push it back out again.

    So you draw me into another forum so that you can rally your friends together in a spitting contest? Grow the hell up.




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    Re: wow...

    sir i agree with everything you said except you seem to still be missing the fact that it is not the amuont of power or non power in this case that causes the damage but the users finger tip on the volume up buttoni can run my 400 watt RMS sub @ 2 watts all day any never begin to damage it... unless i was clipping the amp @ 2 watts which i doubt still would any damage.

    although you seem like well rounded CA guy who knows a thing or two and you ok in my book...

    i think you and i are Disagreeing in symantics

    Mat



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    Re: wow...

    ahahahahahahahah if you werent dishing out bad info to a guy that would have most likely taken it and ended up doing the wrong thing i wouldnt have said anything. but with n00bs they tend to take on what they hear in the beginning, and if thats wrong, it takes them awhile to get set straight, sometimes not at all




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    Re: wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL
    sir i agree with everything you said except you seem to still be missing the fact that it is not the amuont or non power in this case that causes the damage but the users finger tip on the volume up buttoni can run my 400 watt RMS sub @ 2 watts all day any never begin to damage it... unless i was clipping the amp @ 2 watts which i doubt still would any damage.
    I don't know why this is even a discussion. We are saying the same thing. I never said that giving 2 watts to a 50 watt speaker would blow it. What I said was that for an amp that is only rated to deliver 2 watts there is a greater chance that the amp will clip since it has an inefficient power supply.

    Low power amps are likely to deliver voltage drops to the speakers while the user is attempting to gain the volume out of the speaker. This results from the capacitors being discharged and the MOSFETS overheating from the gains being up too high.

    Of course you can power a 600 watt speaker with a 50 watt amp, up to the point of distortion. But if the speaker has a 300oz magnet on it and the amp is not able to prevent a voltage drop due to being underpowered, then when the amp does clip, there is a greater chance that the speaker will be damaged while the amp is attempting to pull the cone back in.

    The most common mistake people have when underpowering speakers is that they force their amps to clip.




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    Re: wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by theSlyguy
    The most common mistake people have when underpowering speakers is that they force their amps to clip.
    yep
    10chars




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