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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by audiobaun View Post
    Atomic still makes some nice drivers but they are not budget priced by a long shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaonzo View Post
    I can appreciate all that. Without a doubt that Chinese TC stuff had so many quality issues it was sickening. Glue problems, lead problems... worse than the ones found in the US production. Thilo should be ashamed.

    Quality, consistency and service is most definitely worth a premium. And at that price point I would not only expect it, I would demand it. But the parts... My perspective on it is this - The truly great XBL stuff came out when parts were still pretty standard and that's just how it was. You had a great new motor bolted up to parts that were holding it back from reaching full potential. No harm in that, and it was the same for TC for quite a while. Those were good days and people were happy and having fun. TC used those same standard parts until the new tooling of their many baskets and spiders and surrounds. Nearly every motor they had experienced some benefit in performance other than the 2" coil stuff.

    New Adire has a real chance at a strong comeback if they would price these new offerings at a much more competitive price just above comparable drivers with normal motors, and work on something that is really some next level shit for the company and the hobby as a whole. As in a true continuation of advancement for a brand that never should have died and would most certainly have pushed beyond those boundaries if they hadn't come full stop, and in a way that we would all expect from guys like Dan, Thilo, and Jacob. (Man, if they could all get along, imagine what that collaboration would give us!)

    When I look at this newly released Adire product, all I see is something that looks like Eminence built it for them (I would almost put money on that guess). Mediocre black paint all over the basket and motor (except the Brahma motor which looks Chinese), cheap yellow spiders, nasty foam surrounds and plastic dust caps. Eminence will build something of pretty good quality for you at a very low price. Nothing that warrants the price the new Adire is attempting to charge in this day and age. I mean look at the aluminum cone dayton drivers that compare to the Shiva and Tempest, there's no way Adire is getting my money for those two drivers so long as the Dayton is available.

    There's too much untapped potential in those XBL motors for even more stroke, while still maintaining a marked sensitivity advantage over other motor topologies. If Adire wants to be a leader in that price bracket they need to offer better baskets, larger spiders, great looking cones with rubber surrounds, and nicely machined motors that are proudly on display, not chromed or painted. Something that truly looks boutique and American made. It's the very reason I have amassed so many of the older, high quality TC drivers.
    Eminence does not build woofers cheap. Equivalent of TC9 would cost over 200$ per piece. Bear in mind they said that motor was a prototype so hopefully the retail model will at least be pretty. As far as spiders, cones, tinsels, surrounds, I'm not entirely sold on needing anything fancy for most applications. None of that is typically a weak link in and of itself that'll prevent a sub from functioning well or giving you a solid 10+ years of service. If you're trying to build a 1200W driver that sounds really good none of that fancy stuff is necessary.

    IMO there is little to be gained by more excursion at this point since you're almost always limited thermally. Standard 12 spoke frame works for almost all applications, TI or LA Storm frame give a bit extra which is still plenty. The cost of exotic spiders and custom tooled surrounds is absolutely not worth it when it only adds inefficiency for the sake of d!ck measuring. None of these super excursion meme woofers are any good nor will they ever be.

    Tell me why you think you'd need another 10mm excursion on top of a Ti frame and I'll tell you why it's not the best way to accomplish your goals. If you're talking about playing sub 20hz and that's something people really "need" out of a small package perhaps it's time to revisit rotary transducers like the old PG ones.




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  3. #32
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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    Tell me why you think you'd need another 10mm excursion on top of a Ti frame and I'll tell you why it's not the best way to accomplish your goals. If you're talking about playing sub 20hz and that's something people really "need" out of a small package perhaps it's time to revisit rotary transducers like the old PG ones.
    Those new Shiva and Tempest are cheap drivers, no matter who is making them. They just don't surpass the Dayton HO/HF or similar drivers in any way and so, should not be priced any differently. $300 for a 15" with a very normal and underwhelming motor, paper cone, foam surround and plastic dust cap? No thank you.

    You may be right, though. This a personal preference and by this point there may not be enough like me left to drive the market in that direction. I get giddy when I hear my TC's dropping into subterranean territory without a hint of mechanical noise or any other type of distortion and much of that is owed to those oversized parts, aside from the low distortion motors. But that's my point, it allows those motors to reach their full potential. Why cap the overall dynamic performance with parts that start pulling tight and making mechanical and harmonic noise long before the motor is producing any distortion? The biggest advantage I have noticed with rubber surrounds and larger spiders is far less mechanical distortion/distress and a better overall sonic signature because of that. This is a good thing for me since I tend to pull heavy from the excursion side of things more than the thermal, whether I go sealed or vented. Not to mention the mechanical run-out is increased by quite a large margin and comes in handy in a scenario where any unexpected large amplitude dynamics come along. This could mean the difference between simply reducing the volume and carrying on, or replacing a driver for a torn spider/surround. Look how many times Thorshammer taped the torn foam surrounds on his DC 10s. Not too many rubber surrounds suffering that same fate. They mostly fall prey to bad aim with the screw gun, lol. And the almost completely negligible difference in sensitivity between foam and rubber surrounds is not enough to ever convince me to buy a foam surround again, they simply fail too often from the sun, fatigue and abuse that we all dish out.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaonzo View Post
    Those new Shiva and Tempest are cheap drivers, no matter who is making them. They just don't surpass the Dayton HO/HF or similar drivers in any way and so, should not be priced any differently. $300 for a 15" with a very normal and underwhelming motor, paper cone, foam surround and plastic dust cap? No thank you.

    You may be right, though. This a personal preference and by this point there may not be enough like me left to drive the market in that direction. I get giddy when I hear my TC's dropping into subterranean territory without a hint of mechanical noise or any other type of distortion and much of that is owed to those oversized parts, aside from the low distortion motors. But that's my point, it allows those motors to reach their full potential. Why cap the overall dynamic performance with parts that start pulling tight and making mechanical and harmonic noise long before the motor is producing any distortion? The biggest advantage I have noticed with rubber surrounds and larger spiders is far less mechanical distortion/distress and a better overall sonic signature because of that. This is a good thing for me since I tend to pull heavy from the excursion side of things more than the thermal, whether I go sealed or vented. Not to mention the mechanical run-out is increased by quite a large margin and comes in handy in a scenario where any unexpected large amplitude dynamics come along. This could mean the difference between simply reducing the volume and carrying on, or replacing a driver for a torn spider/surround. Look how many times Thorshammer taped the torn foam surrounds on his DC 10s. Not too many rubber surrounds suffering that same fate. They mostly fall prey to bad aim with the screw gun, lol. And the almost completely negligible difference in sensitivity between foam and rubber surrounds is not enough to ever convince me to buy a foam surround again, they simply fail too often from the sun, fatigue and abuse that we all dish out.
    You can make a fair case for the 10" spider frames over the 8" landing 12 spokes for the sake of lower mechanical noise at useful power levels but again, at what point do you stop? What do you gain? Say we can get another 25% x-mech out of some new fancy frame and special cone and spider, what does that translate into real-world? .7dB? Inaudible and likely you'll lose that or more in efficiency losses trying to get there. Can we even realistically go bigger than a 10" spider on 10" and 12" drivers? Are you really running out of throw on Ti frame 15's and 18s? I'd say if you are you're doing something very wrong with your box or you're overpowering them to the point where they'll fail thermally just as fast. My old TC2000 15s played on a Stetsom 7K and they'd hang with 20hz in my box. What more do you need? If you do need more is a conventional loudspeaker even the way to get there? I'd say some super excursion 10s and 12s may be of value in the market for the sake of people who want small space efficiency be damned, but it'll still just turn into an inefficient meme driver that's only good for youtube "flex" videos, and for that you have options NOW. The Earthquake Hole X, SMD woofer, RE XXX come to mind. Long/large coils are inefficient as are big surrounds which also rob you of effective piston area.

    I don't think anybody with rubber surrounds did what Thor's Hammer was doing to his. I'm sure no material would hold up much better. I used to see that in person in this region and what he did was gross abuse and I think the surrounds weren't the only thing he was breaking regularly.

    Don't get me wrong, I really liked those TC surrounds too and would use them for preference on a musical driver, so why does nobody else in the industry use them? Must be some compelling reason and it can't be cost because it can't be more than a dollar per unit difference.

    Anyway, I'm still not convinced that any of that fancy stuff really translates to audible performance gains apart from under near-failure extreme conditions and then likely minimal and always at the cost of efficiency. Now should they use something new/different/unusual for materials just for the sake of looking like something special? Perhaps, and that may be a poor marketing choice to not use some fancy materials to build the perceived value. For me, having been around the block a few times and talking to people in the industry, if they spent an extra 5$ for parts just for the sake of looking special it adds zero value for me. I'm going to weigh out what they're worth based on my ears, the meter, and how well the stuff holds up real-world. The stuff you can't see (motor and steel grade and actual electromagnetic performance) is what is really going to make or break a loudspeaker in my book.




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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Just saying years ago when I got my apxx 18 with 4” coil it was $550 shipped
    Not exactly expensive when top aa sd or dc are over $1000




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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    You can make a fair case for the 10" spider frames over the 8" landing 12 spokes for the sake of lower mechanical noise at useful power levels but again, at what point do you stop? What do you gain? Say we can get another 25% x-mech out of some new fancy frame and special cone and spider, what does that translate into real-world? .7dB?
    I hear you. It's not so much the gain in dB that a person like me is concerned with, just the perceived sonic signature of the driver remaining a bit cleaner because the smaller parts are not pulling tight by the time you are really starting to hammer on the driver a bit. Though, in all fairness, you eventually arrive at the same point with the larger parts. Just better behavior as the driver is being asked to get a little louder. All in the context of dynamic musical enjoyment, mind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    Can we even realistically go bigger than a 10" spider on 10" and 12" drivers? Are you really running out of throw on Ti frame 15's and 18s?
    No, I may have misstated something. I'm not looking for anything more than that. But that is what I'm looking for with an XBL motor and at the price point New Adire is attempting. No dated or standard parts is all I'm driving at. That's all. I think it's fair to expect more than that for a premium price.

    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    I don't think anybody with rubber surrounds did what Thor's Hammer was doing to his. I'm sure no material would hold up much better. I used to see that in person in this region and what he did was gross abuse and I think the surrounds weren't the only thing he was breaking regularly.
    Yeah, no getting around failure with his approach. I think the glue joint would have pulled apart if a rubber surround would have held, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I really liked those TC surrounds too and would use them for preference on a musical driver, so why does nobody else in the industry use them? Must be some compelling reason and it can't be cost because it can't be more than a dollar per unit difference.
    There's actually quite a few examples to give for other companies using that profile surround, whether it's rubber or foam. Rockford T1/T2, Image Dynamics, NVX, American Bass, Memphis, ... There's a few others. No big deal, just saying. It's the work-around to eating up cone area as you pointed out. I imagine it also helps prevent a few warranty claims here and there but that's a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    Anyway, I'm still not convinced that any of that fancy stuff really translates to audible performance gains apart from under near-failure extreme conditions and then likely minimal and always at the cost of efficiency. Now should they use something new/different/unusual for materials just for the sake of looking like something special? Perhaps, and that may be a poor marketing choice to not use some fancy materials to build the perceived value. For me, having been around the block a few times and talking to people in the industry, if they spent an extra 5$ for parts just for the sake of looking special it adds zero value for me. I'm going to weigh out what they're worth based on my ears, the meter, and how well the stuff holds up real-world. The stuff you can't see (motor and steel grade and actual electromagnetic performance) is what is really going to make or break a loudspeaker in my book.
    I couldn't agree more and I'm realizing that I'm coming off as ungrateful for the whole return of Adire thing. That's not my intent and I'm excited about it. I don't need fancy and I certainly don't want them to end up looking like toys as many of these other drivers have. I just want things like shorting rings and oversized parts that offer lower distortion and higher mechanical reliability, and I want it at a price that doesn't insult my intelligence. There's no denying the motor is the heart of the product and there's not much competition for linear BL out there these days, so they have that going for them. But I think they are insulting people by offering that motor today with parts platforms from yesterday and charging that much. They are needlessly limiting that beautiful motor and imposing unnecessary mechanical distortion under real-world dynamic conditions, and it may very well be at the risk of some loss to the company linked to relatively high warranty claims, because we all know people are going to buy this SQ driver and torture it to get the most output possible from it. And the Shiva/Tempest drivers? Forget about it. Those are unnecessary offerings, dated vanilla. Look at the prices on those things, all based on the Adire brand name.

    End of the day, I think it would have been an incredibly successful approach to offer this awesome gem that is the traditional Brahma for a price that just blows people's minds. Perhaps a year long celebratory reintroduction price of around $300-$325 for any size, I dunno. They would sell like proverbial hotcakes and this revenue would pave the way for the driver that I, and many others, are envisioning. I mean for the price they are currently asking for a 15" Brahma, I am going to buy the 15" beast that Peerless/Tymphany is offering at $470. I guarantee it will outperform the Brahma.

    Tell me you wouldn't go nuts over a revised Tumult with something like the Ti basket and quality spiders that are compliant and quiet for the utmost in musical reproduction. The audible gains are subjectively lower distortion, not really for the meter. It doesn't need to be overly fancy, keep a nice stiff paper cone with a modern surround that doesn't eat up too much of the Sd but can cope with the dynamic excursion extremes that we would all dish out, and offer a nice looking dust cap. Just something that looks and feels classic from the front, but 'round back is all business and commands respect for the suggested performance potential. This new Tumult beast may even be a 4" coil, who knows. One can dream.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Mabey they will do something new with the Parthenon motor




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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    They just sent out a 15% off.
    adire15off



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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by tymoto21 View Post
    Mabey they will do something new with the Parthenon motor
    That could be fun. Perhaps a monster for home theater that will compete with that fan subwoofer from Eminent Technology, lol. I always thought the Parthenon was a pretty cool novelty showing what was possible from that platform.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaonzo View Post
    I just want things like shorting rings and oversized parts that offer lower distortion and higher mechanical reliability,

    My point is do they? And do they for an acceptable tradeoff of efficiency loss? If anything besides a 10" version of that sub is coming back with mechanical failure someone has exceeded the 1200W rating (and 1200W that you can realistically feed that coil indefinitely). Even with an 8" spider landing do you really think by the time you're nearing the point where the suspension is causing non-linearity you're going to notice?

    We can only hope Wiggins had a hand in the design (including parts selection and prototype testing). If this is the case you'd have to imagine he has his reasons for not using any of those things or going for a different design. Not like shorting rings and Ti style frames didn't exist the first time he was in production so you'd have to suspect he had tested or at least considered them and ruled them out for whatever reason. It would be really nice if he were to get back active on forums and chime in on these issues. As you elude to, consumers do expect to see a lot more fancy features for 400$ price point and there certainly are plenty of new off the shelf choices for parts.




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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Low distortion in sub has never been a problem. Itís hard to hear anyway. You hear panels before the woofer.
    Just donít stress it mechanically.



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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by LosIsATool View Post
    Low distortion in sub has never been a problem. It’s hard to hear anyway. You hear panels before the woofer.
    Just don’t stress it mechanically.
    There's some truth to that. And I would second that motion when suggesting subwoofers to most others, but not for myself. When you have heard the very lowest distortion drivers do their thing and have lived with them for an extended period of time, then try to go back other drivers, it's at that point when it becomes very obvious the different types of distortion that were present in the other drivers all along. But you're right, it is hard to hear for some, and if we hear it we just don't mind it as much. And as you said, not stressing it mechanically is a key factor. But I would reserve those qualifiers for normal motor drivers like the Shiva and Tempest, not a linear BL motor driver like the Brahma. That is a true low distortion platform that deserves some refinement.

    I will admit that I've been incredibly spoiled and/or ruined by low distortion drivers, I just can't stand the sound of many normal offerings now. Doesn't matter if it's a subwoofer or a tweeter. I can hear the difference. My biggest hangups are mechanical noise or turbulence of any kind, IM distortion, and odd order non-linearity. If a driver is not well behaved in the upper registers during large excursion from the lower registers, it doesn't stick around in my systems. The distortion is not always obvious and just ends up being this sort of hash that doesn't allow the inner details to come out. Or, it can create a really obvious "talking into a fan" sound, lol. These designs simply can't cope with dynamics unless you double up or quadruple up on them to reduce the excursion, and that gets expensive. I like single drivers to do the job so they need to be low distortion designs. All it takes is soft parts that remain quiet and allow the motor to run out of steam before they begin to make dynamic braking noises of their own, in conjunction with low inductance approaches from sleeves or rings with smaller mass coils and maybe a tighter gap. And this stuff is everywhere now, it's not like you need to pay through the nose anymore to get it. Just no excuse to deal with any type of distortion from drivers. And certainly no reason to pay any kind of premium price for any driver that doesn't offer these features.

    I'll leave it alone because I'm coming off the wrong way and I really am excited that Adire is back in the game. But please don't fault me if I hold my breath for a better offering from them before putting my money down. I just can't regress back into a 12 spoke frame and foam surrounds, lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by hispls View Post
    My point is do they? And do they for an acceptable tradeoff of efficiency loss? If anything besides a 10" version of that sub is coming back with mechanical failure someone has exceeded the 1200W rating (and 1200W that you can realistically feed that coil indefinitely). Even with an 8" spider landing do you really think by the time you're nearing the point where the suspension is causing non-linearity you're going to notice?

    We can only hope Wiggins had a hand in the design (including parts selection and prototype testing). If this is the case you'd have to imagine he has his reasons for not using any of those things or going for a different design. Not like shorting rings and Ti style frames didn't exist the first time he was in production so you'd have to suspect he had tested or at least considered them and ruled them out for whatever reason. It would be really nice if he were to get back active on forums and chime in on these issues. As you elude to, consumers do expect to see a lot more fancy features for 400$ price point and there certainly are plenty of new off the shelf choices for parts.
    To your point, I would say yes. They do. Will everyone notice the benefits? No. So I think we can safely chalk that up as a win for you. In the XBL motors you can add flux stabilizing rings that will not eat into motor force product because you don't need to make the gap any wider to do that. But even if you add a sleeve, it doesn't need to be so terribly thick that it makes or breaks the overall Qts because of a wider gap. Just something to help negate the inherent inductance of the coil, even if just a little.

    Which brings me to answering, or rather venturing a guess, the other question as to why they didn't/don't use the parts you and I have mentioned. I believe they were ruled as cost prohibitive simply to protect the bottom line for the business vision and for the reason I already conceded to above; the larger demographic simply wouldn't notice the marginal increase in subjective performance. I can respect and appreciate that, but can't help wanting a more refined product from Adire since at the heart of everything is one of the greatest linear BL motors ever conceived. By all rights, scaled up and refined it should be outstripping the LMS platform in every single category (and that's saying a lot coming from me). It could, but it doesn't.

    I hope you're right, I hope Dan Wiggins did have a hand in getting things going once again. But I also hope there is someone on that ship that will venture into new territory with that motor. Take a risk. Space the gaps further apart, make them a bit taller for more B. Stretch the coil a bit to accommodate that design, make a new monster. But FFS, use parts that are up to that task. And stop wasting time with the Shiva and Tempest designs as long as they are not XBL. That's pointless unless it's simply for nostalgia.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Iíve had a W7 back in the way day. Didnít really care for it but I was also more of a basshead.
    Got another a few years later thinking that I messed something up. Still didnít really care for it.
    I may just like a bit of distortion there



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    ciaonzo's Avatar
    ciaonzo is offline TheContinental



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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Quote Originally Posted by LosIsATool View Post
    I’ve had a W7 back in the way day. Didn’t really care for it but I was also more of a basshead.
    Got another a few years later thinking that I messed something up. Still didn’t really care for it.
    I may just like a bit of distortion there
    The W7 doesn't offer anything in the way of low distortion other than the oversized parts. There's no sleeve or shorting ring and the coil is really long. The gap is tighter so efficiency is okay, but that's about it. It's just a driver that is good at turning current/voltage into output and it can really stroke so it's still a performer. But it's making distortion for sure.

    I get what you're saying, though, and there's nothing wrong with liking some distortion in your playback. Especially if it's just for loud fun. Okay then, I like that kind of distortion, too. I had d trio if 15W6 drivers and they are plain vanilla but they were efficient and very fun. Not the most accurate but sounded very good. I can deal with that, I'm not a total snob.

    It's kinda like that on the other end of the spectrum with LMS and XBL drivers, some people really do not like the way they sound. Distortion snobs demanding at least some kind of distortion, lol. Probably the best single argument for leaving the standard parts in place, so they can add a little bit of that in while the motor stays clean. lol



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

  22. #45
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    LosIsATool is offline CarAudio.com Veteran



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    Re: Adire Audio is back!

    Do they still have distortion when they get to far outside of the fs?



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