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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    So with all this confusion I ask this. Who has tried this with good results and who is just talking out of there ***. The point of the thread was to ask if it works. I don't think anyone is interested in heresay. If it hasn't worked for you its one thing but when an engineer is saying it's gonna work I'll take his word over someone who hasn't tried it.







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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by beginner View Post
    So with all this confusion I ask this. Who has tried this with good results and who is just talking out of there ***. The point of the thread was to ask if it works. I don't think anyone is interested in heresay. If it hasn't worked for you its one thing but when an engineer is saying it's gonna work I'll take his word over someone who hasn't tried it.
    Keephopealive is an acoustical engineer and prolly one of the most knowledgable people here.

    Candleshop is new here and has yet to prove his knowledge



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by winkychevelle View Post
    Ok man ill do that but wait ive already done that and yea maybe you should actually try it before you dismiss it because by what ever way it affects the speaker I can say it works. And you are quick to shur me up because why? You have no proof at all you are just speaking out of your *** because you are a shop.
    I asked for you to go to an sq comp and question the competitors there what they are using in their doors and kick panels, not whether or not you've tried home insulation in a car. That's like using peel n seal as a deadener, like I said before.

    It's got nothing to do with us being a shop, there's a reason why home audio and pro audio speaker cabinets don't use home insulation. Even in an environment where there's less moisture they still use polyfill. Wonder why that is? Because an engineer actually tested polyfill to work as it's needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by beginner View Post
    So with all this confusion I ask this. Who has tried this with good results and who is just talking out of there ***. The point of the thread was to ask if it works. I don't think anyone is interested in heresay. If it hasn't worked for you its one thing but when an engineer is saying it's gonna work I'll take his word over someone who hasn't tried it.
    I'm not gonna stuff insulation (and deal with the histamine itch) when there is a product that has been proven to work and readily available (any Walmart has polyfill). Not to mention no itch (although many polyfill products have fiberglass in them), no plastic needed and resulting less work/cost.

    If someone's "tag" under their username makes them more knowledgable, them there are a lot of people who are talking out of their *** on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by winkychevelle View Post
    Keephopealive is an acoustical engineer and prolly one of the most knowledgable people here.

    Candleshop is new here and has yet to prove his knowledge
    Not new here been a member since '04, just have a different username as a previous mod (that went rogue) banned me as a favor to his buddy. That's been addressed before.




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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    I have competed in sq comps and talked to many competitors and most around here use some form of stuffing to absorb the rear wave most use open cell egg crate foam some use deflex pads to redirect the sound waves but weather polyfill, rokwool, fiberglass, or ceramic insulation many understand the risk involved and the benefit gained.

    If you are so **** worried about itching wear gloves and long sleeves or better yet a tyvek suit. Ive never had issues with fiberglass insulation even when building houses.

    And keephope alive has been deem a talented intellectual by me due to his post I have read and the details of his build logs. Rich has data to back him I ask again where is yours you simply redirect the question.

    and ban or not you have not been active enough on this forum to deem you anything. You havent posted buildlogs from my knowledge or even explained accurately why the insulation doesnt work.

    you simple state it will mold and cause itching. Covering it with 1mil drop cloth and wearing proper clothing when dealing with the stuff will solve.

    so I ask you why wouldnt you do this? Screw the mold it can be defeated and itching goes away so whats wrong with it?



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    I did it and I wore some kitchen rubber gloves(the yellow long ones) while handling the insulation. I may have worn a dust mask, but I don't recall. 0 itching, no lung irritation whatsoever. I would definitely do this again.




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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by trumpet View Post
    I did it and I wore some kitchen rubber gloves(the yellow long ones) while handling the insulation. I may have worn a dust mask, but I don't recall. 0 itching, no lung irritation whatsoever. I would definitely do this again.
    So does it make any noticeable difference?




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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by beginner View Post
    So does it make any noticeable difference?
    Yes it really does. Word of advice if you use ceramic insulation like I did dont use a good knife on it cuz it ruins an edge. I had just sharpened by edc folder and after 5 cuts its as dull as ever



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by CandeShop View Post
    Wrong, the reason why you hear any difference is because you have now shrunk the volume of the "enclosure" the driver is playing in.

    In doing house remodels, I've done tests of walls with insulation and without. The difference is minimal as to how much sound can be reverberated to the other side. It's done in the ceilings of houses to avoid heat/cold transfer thus allowing your home to stay at the desired temperature more easily.

    Using home insulation is no different than using poly fill, except for the fact that one can cause itchiness, molds easily and over time deteriorates with various temperature changes, age and weather. The other loses no volume due to deterioration and has no properties that'll cause histamine reactions nor does it mold. Tbh the home insulation idea is just about the same as people presenting peel and seal as a sound deadener.
    Apparently you have no idea what flanking paths are when testing walls, I see a lot of people do sound testing incorrect. Nor do you understand sound propagation or sound absorption. You also don't seem understand thermodynamics and the concept of insulation. Building walls doesn't mean you understand the physics behind sound and thermal energy transfer. It just means you can swing a hammer. Be respectful of your elders, they can help you learn and become more successful in your career. If you had been more polite we could have simply had a phone conversation and you could have asked all of the questions you have.

    the acoustic benefits of fiberglass over other materials are well documented. as an acoustics engineer i design sound-rated walls in large commercial buildings, hospitals, etc. i understand the differences of all materials that are used for sound absorption, perform acoustic testing of spaces, and also do acoustic measurements for solving noise problems in buildings. as a senior electrical engineer my projects are hospitals that cost hundreds of millions. controlling sound and noise in hospitals and schools is important and requires an understanding of acoustical applications.

    if you would like to read reports associated with the acoustic properties of various types of fill, i'm happy to share them. some of the materials require a membership to the Acoustical Society of America, and some are available for reading by all. I have thousands of pages of test data of walls with various forms of acoustical fill and fiberglass batt outperforms every other fill material and makes a substantial difference vs. without. The National Research Council of Canada has hundreds of reports testing thousands of different wall configurations. I have to study these reports in order to design buildings and ensure good sound isolation. my forum reputation over the past 8 years has been built on providing a lot of good advice to thousands of people. But this topic doesn't really pull from my 20 years experience in car audio, but instead the last 7 years i've spent as an acoustics engineer in parallel with my electrical engineering degree and engineering experience - yes, i carry two job titles. i've given presentations to architects, engineers, and also at ASA conferences. That is why I can talk about this as an expert, because in the eyes of the construction industry, i am.

    Even easier relevant information to reference is the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason. he tested the acoustical benefits of various types of speaker box fill materials and noted the VAST improvement of fiberglass batt over polyfill. I am happy to provide this book to you at no cost if you send me a PM. I am also happy to provide you access to several acoustical text book and handbooks - easily a grand worth of literature and information on acoustics.

    In the LDC you will learn that fiberglass in an enclosure does not make the airspace "smaller" as you claim, but instead slows the propagation of sound and absorbs sound to make the speaker behave as if it is in a larger enclosure. The absorption of the rear wave is what makes FG in doors successful. the results are instant and obvious, and the results match expectations.

    Fiberglass Batt (open and compressed) is the primary material use in sound absorption products because of it's superior performance. Look in concert halls, recording studios, recording booths, fibrous silencers for HVAC or generator exhaust systems, etc. and you see fiberglass panels and other forms of absorption using fiberglass. When moisture is a concern, we employ a PVC encased fiberglass batt for sound absorption - this is true for natatoriums (swimming pools) and in the air stream of HVAC silencers.

    The uses in commercial industry is where I got the idea to use them in a car door. It's no different than other commercially available products for room acoustics, just on a smaller DIY scale. CMA sells PVC encased fiberglass banners and bags that we will put above suspended GWB clouds - to absorb sound that would otherwise be reverberant.

    Sounds like you have no idea about the field of acoustics - which is ok. Forums are for learning. Here are some companies that make acoustical products using fiberglass, none of them use polyfill - that shyt is for pillows.

    RPG Diffusor Systems, Inc.
    SoundSense – acoustic consulting, noise reduction, and sound design
    Kinetics Noise Control, Room Acoustics, Vibration Isolation, Seismic Restraint
    Golterman & Sabo Acoustics | St Louis, Missouri
    CMA - Creative Materials for Acoustics


    I've seen what competitors are using for absorption in the doors - and in some cases it's laughable. i've seen foam that is painted for water resistance - which takes a poor performing material and makes it nearly useless. open cell foams are better than nothing, but still poor performers. i don't concern myself trying to copy what other people do. i analyze the problem and engineer a solution that is backed by science... it's what makes me a good engineer.

    cheers.



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    i am also intrigued by UltraTouch insulation sold at home improvement stores. Made from recycled denim and other materials, it is safe to handle and claimed to have comparable acoustical properties. I think using Ultra Touch insulation would help people feel better about the material. I haven't seen legitimate test data for the products, just typical marketing.

    Fiberglass batt insulation has been used for decades, most construction workers aren't afraid of it, they just wear respirators, long sleeves, and gloves (as do I). MDF dust is just as harmful to breathe, FYI.

    The main issue i've had when doing this is keeping the bags tight and thin. even pushing air out and sealing with tape, the thin plastic sheets can tear and cause air to get back in - fine for sound absorption but they get bulky.

    using fiberglass ceiling tiles may be an even better solution because they won't "pillow" but they also don't bend so you'd have to work with several smaller pieces.

    Another option for compressed absorption that is easy to work with is the UltraTouch thermal insulating barrier (commonly used for duct and pipe insulation). This comes in large rolls and is fairly thin and compressed. several layers could be combined then encased in plastic for sound absorption that doesn't "pillow", is easy to handle, and also performs well. I've had good luck with the UltraTouch thermal insulating barriers in doors and on the floors/walls of a car in conjunction with MLV.

    Another great product that i've been using in my door speaker mounts is Green Glue - an elastomeric damping compound normally used between layers of GWB in commercial/home construction of walls. I've had amazing success with Green Glue when engineering sound isolating walls when mechanical equipment makes rooms unbearable. In these applications I did acoustic testing of the existing condition, engineered the solution, including the walls, ceilings, and flanking paths, then post-construction testing to verify success.



    have you been helped by me? i'd love to know. shoot me a PM.

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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive View Post
    Apparently you have no idea what flanking paths are when testing walls, I see a lot of people do sound testing incorrect. Nor do you understand sound propagation or sound absorption. You also don't seem understand thermodynamics and the concept of insulation. Building walls doesn't mean you understand the physics behind sound and thermal energy transfer. It just means you can swing a hammer. Be respectful of your elders, they can help you learn and become more successful in your career. If you had been more polite we could have simply had a phone conversation and you could have asked all of the questions you have.

    the acoustic benefits of fiberglass over other materials are well documented. as an acoustics engineer i design sound-rated walls in large commercial buildings, hospitals, etc. i understand the differences of all materials that are used for sound absorption, perform acoustic testing of spaces, and also do acoustic measurements for solving noise problems in buildings. as a senior electrical engineer my projects are hospitals that cost hundreds of millions. controlling sound and noise in hospitals and schools is important and requires an understanding of acoustical applications.

    if you would like to read reports associated with the acoustic properties of various types of fill, i'm happy to share them. some of the materials require a membership to the Acoustical Society of America, and some are available for reading by all. I have thousands of pages of test data of walls with various forms of acoustical fill and fiberglass batt outperforms every other fill material and makes a substantial difference vs. without. The National Research Council of Canada has hundreds of reports testing thousands of different wall configurations. I have to study these reports in order to design buildings and ensure good sound isolation. my forum reputation over the past 8 years has been built on providing a lot of good advice to thousands of people. But this topic doesn't really pull from my 20 years experience in car audio, but instead the last 7 years i've spent as an acoustics engineer in parallel with my electrical engineering degree and engineering experience - yes, i carry two job titles. i've given presentations to architects, engineers, and also at ASA conferences. That is why I can talk about this as an expert, because in the eyes of the construction industry, i am.

    Even easier relevant information to reference is the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason. he tested the acoustical benefits of various types of speaker box fill materials and noted the VAST improvement of fiberglass batt over polyfill. I am happy to provide this book to you at no cost if you send me a PM. I am also happy to provide you access to several acoustical text book and handbooks - easily a grand worth of literature and information on acoustics.

    In the LDC you will learn that fiberglass in an enclosure does not make the airspace "smaller" as you claim, but instead slows the propagation of sound and absorbs sound to make the speaker behave as if it is in a larger enclosure. The absorption of the rear wave is what makes FG in doors successful. the results are instant and obvious, and the results match expectations.

    Fiberglass Batt (open and compressed) is the primary material use in sound absorption products because of it's superior performance. Look in concert halls, recording studios, recording booths, fibrous silencers for HVAC or generator exhaust systems, etc. and you see fiberglass panels and other forms of absorption using fiberglass. When moisture is a concern, we employ a PVC encased fiberglass batt for sound absorption - this is true for natatoriums (swimming pools) and in the air stream of HVAC silencers.

    The uses in commercial industry is where I got the idea to use them in a car door. It's no different than other commercially available products for room acoustics, just on a smaller DIY scale. CMA sells PVC encased fiberglass banners and bags that we will put above suspended GWB clouds - to absorb sound that would otherwise be reverberant.

    Sounds like you have no idea about the field of acoustics - which is ok. Forums are for learning. Here are some companies that make acoustical products using fiberglass, none of them use polyfill - that shyt is for pillows.

    RPG Diffusor Systems, Inc.
    SoundSense acoustic consulting, noise reduction, and sound design
    Kinetics Noise Control, Room Acoustics, Vibration Isolation, Seismic Restraint
    Golterman & Sabo Acoustics | St Louis, Missouri
    CMA - Creative Materials for Acoustics


    I've seen what competitors are using for absorption in the doors - and in some cases it's laughable. i've seen foam that is painted for water resistance - which takes a poor performing material and makes it nearly useless. open cell foams are better than nothing, but still poor performers. i don't concern myself trying to copy what other people do. i analyze the problem and engineer a solution that is backed by science... it's what makes me a good engineer.

    cheers.
    I think we have a winner.




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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by beginner View Post
    I think we have a winner.
    Yep the real pro can back up his statement as noted above



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    The Lowe's I go to sells white fiberglass batting that is no-itch and has worked very well in my doors.



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Husky Plastic Drop Cloth, 1 Mil: Paint & Home Decor : Walmart.com solution to all your itching in the doors, get a heat sealer or tape it up.



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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive View Post
    Apparently you have no idea what flanking paths are when testing walls, I see a lot of people do sound testing incorrect. Nor do you understand sound propagation or sound absorption. You also don't seem understand thermodynamics and the concept of insulation. Building walls doesn't mean you understand the physics behind sound and thermal energy transfer. It just means you can swing a hammer. Be respectful of your elders, they can help you learn and become more successful in your career. If you had been more polite we could have simply had a phone conversation and you could have asked all of the questions you have.

    the acoustic benefits of fiberglass over other materials are well documented. as an acoustics engineer i design sound-rated walls in large commercial buildings, hospitals, etc. i understand the differences of all materials that are used for sound absorption, perform acoustic testing of spaces, and also do acoustic measurements for solving noise problems in buildings. as a senior electrical engineer my projects are hospitals that cost hundreds of millions. controlling sound and noise in hospitals and schools is important and requires an understanding of acoustical applications.

    if you would like to read reports associated with the acoustic properties of various types of fill, i'm happy to share them. some of the materials require a membership to the Acoustical Society of America, and some are available for reading by all. I have thousands of pages of test data of walls with various forms of acoustical fill and fiberglass batt outperforms every other fill material and makes a substantial difference vs. without. The National Research Council of Canada has hundreds of reports testing thousands of different wall configurations. I have to study these reports in order to design buildings and ensure good sound isolation. my forum reputation over the past 8 years has been built on providing a lot of good advice to thousands of people. But this topic doesn't really pull from my 20 years experience in car audio, but instead the last 7 years i've spent as an acoustics engineer in parallel with my electrical engineering degree and engineering experience - yes, i carry two job titles. i've given presentations to architects, engineers, and also at ASA conferences. That is why I can talk about this as an expert, because in the eyes of the construction industry, i am.

    Even easier relevant information to reference is the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook by Vance Dickason. he tested the acoustical benefits of various types of speaker box fill materials and noted the VAST improvement of fiberglass batt over polyfill. I am happy to provide this book to you at no cost if you send me a PM. I am also happy to provide you access to several acoustical text book and handbooks - easily a grand worth of literature and information on acoustics.

    In the LDC you will learn that fiberglass in an enclosure does not make the airspace "smaller" as you claim, but instead slows the propagation of sound and absorbs sound to make the speaker behave as if it is in a larger enclosure. The absorption of the rear wave is what makes FG in doors successful. the results are instant and obvious, and the results match expectations.

    Fiberglass Batt (open and compressed) is the primary material use in sound absorption products because of it's superior performance. Look in concert halls, recording studios, recording booths, fibrous silencers for HVAC or generator exhaust systems, etc. and you see fiberglass panels and other forms of absorption using fiberglass. When moisture is a concern, we employ a PVC encased fiberglass batt for sound absorption - this is true for natatoriums (swimming pools) and in the air stream of HVAC silencers.

    The uses in commercial industry is where I got the idea to use them in a car door. It's no different than other commercially available products for room acoustics, just on a smaller DIY scale. CMA sells PVC encased fiberglass banners and bags that we will put above suspended GWB clouds - to absorb sound that would otherwise be reverberant.

    Sounds like you have no idea about the field of acoustics - which is ok. Forums are for learning. Here are some companies that make acoustical products using fiberglass, none of them use polyfill - that shyt is for pillows.

    RPG Diffusor Systems, Inc.
    SoundSense – acoustic consulting, noise reduction, and sound design
    Kinetics Noise Control, Room Acoustics, Vibration Isolation, Seismic Restraint
    Golterman & Sabo Acoustics | St Louis, Missouri
    CMA - Creative Materials for Acoustics


    I've seen what competitors are using for absorption in the doors - and in some cases it's laughable. i've seen foam that is painted for water resistance - which takes a poor performing material and makes it nearly useless. open cell foams are better than nothing, but still poor performers. i don't concern myself trying to copy what other people do. i analyze the problem and engineer a solution that is backed by science... it's what makes me a good engineer.

    cheers.

    Thanks for taking the time to type this out and share.




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    Re: home insulation in doors?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffdachef View Post
    Husky Plastic Drop Cloth, 1 Mil: Paint & Home Decor : Walmart.com solution to all your itching in the doors, get a heat sealer or tape it up.
    While that may keep the fibers from getting wet as well as floating into the cabin of the car, that still doesn't keep the insulation from deteriorating.

    I'm done in this thread. An "acoustical engineer" thinks that a roll of insulation is better than the products designed specific for acoustics. You're free to spend your money how you want, but I'll choose other options.

    Here's an experiment that was done by a student at Pitt. Showing the fiberglass is better than polyester, yet still isn't as good as the "egg crate" open foam with 1/2" holes in it. So yes the fiberglass (purchased at radio shack) was better then polyester filling for pillows, but it still doesn't equal the foam that was created specific for the acoustical purpose. http://www.pitt.edu/~szekeres/resonant.txt




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