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    Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    SPL has never been my thing, I'm more of a single sub SQ type of guy. But I'm going for my version of SPL this summer. Which isn't truly SPL at all but should be fun, regardless. I'll be running 4 LMS 12's in a very large sealed enclosure built up in the rear floor of a Torrent. The last time I ran anything approaching an SPL type setup was a trio of 15W6's way back in the day, but that was when a guy could do that with very little upgrading to the electrical and still get pretty decent results.

    This time around will not be so easy as these drivers have relatively low BL and are horribly inefficient. Their reactive component makes them extremely difficult to drive as they demand both high voltage and high current from the amplifier to perform their best. Normally one could alleviate some of that by using a small enclosure to keep the impedance profile in check and just throw more power at it, but the low BL product and high Q pretty much mandates a large enclosure. Which is fine, I would rather be limited by mechanical excursion on lower power in a large enclosure, than by thermal compression on high(ish) power in a small enclosure. Anyway...

    I need realistic tips on things like what type/how many batteries I would need for one, possibly two, BB2400.1 or similar. I don't want overkill, just reliability. The biggest amplifier I have at this point is a Clarion DPX11551 with a run of 1/0. Do I need another run when I get up into the 2k-3k region?

    With the batteries.. you guys running isolators, or no? Do you guys like your BB2400.1's? Any other amplifiers I should be considering for the job of 2k-3k @ 1ohm?



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.




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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    well what class or org are you planning on running in? pending on which class or org they have limitations on battery per certain classes. the big bang amps always did good and are liked. some dont like them cause they are planet audio ya know. and isolators i dont know anyone running them personally. more connections allow more resistance in the wire from what i was taught and have been told numerous times.

    as per battery mfgr it all depends on what you want to spend. i am a huge fan of deka being they are cheap and dependable. but mostly xs power are great batteries, batcaps are great, odyssey, and deka would be my first choices for batteries




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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Quote Originally Posted by sacsking916 View Post
    well what class or org are you planning on running in? pending on which class or org they have limitations on battery per certain classes. the big bang amps always did good and are liked. some dont like them cause they are planet audio ya know. and isolators i dont know anyone running them personally. more connections allow more resistance in the wire from what i was taught and have been told numerous times.

    as per battery mfgr it all depends on what you want to spend. i am a huge fan of deka being they are cheap and dependable. but mostly xs power are great batteries, batcaps are great, odyssey, and deka would be my first choices for batteries
    dekas for the win ..i jus got 2 group 27 120ah for 80 bucks each




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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Cool, good to hear about the 2400.1's.

    Okay, good info on the batts... can I get away with just one? I should also mention that I'm not competing with this setup, it's strictly for fun.



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    I'm confused... you said lms... sealed... and spl lol Why sealed? Why lms? What's your goal? Its sound more like your trying to build a daily ground pounder. Why not pick up a used 3k amp from sundown or something similar? If your totally against going ported I would do subs down fired and angled toward the back and I'd use 3 15" pr's firing back. You could easily get away with running 1 additional large battery and a 300 amp high output alternator.




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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    I have 4 bb2400s and I like them but they have been problematic at times. I've read that they are discontinued. You may want to consider that. I suggest cheap deka batteries also. They have worked well for me!



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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Trippymane View Post
    I'm confused... you said lms... sealed... and spl lol Why sealed? Why lms? What's your goal? Its sound more like your trying to build a daily ground pounder. Why not pick up a used 3k amp from sundown or something similar? If your totally against going ported I would do subs down fired and angled toward the back and I'd use 3 15" pr's firing back. You could easily get away with running 1 additional large battery and a 300 amp high output alternator.
    I'm not against vented applications, most of my setups are. I'm just scaling up a particular setup. I did say MY version of SPL, lol. Anyway, I'm mostly after opinions and info regarding batteries and amplifiers. I will definitely not be moving up to a 300a alternator. I'm just looking to create a buffer between the amplifier(s) and the 140a alternator that I have. Like I said, I don't compete, I just want everything to be reliable for occasional pounding and some tone driven music. So, looking for tips in that regard.

    ---------- Post added at 09:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by truckramrod View Post
    I have 4 bb2400s and I like them but they have been problematic at times. I've read that they are discontinued. You may want to consider that. I suggest cheap deka batteries also. They have worked well for me!
    Thanks! Care to elaborate on the problematic aspects of owning your BB's?



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    You might need 2 batteries without the alternator route. More batteries = bigger buffer. I know you are smart enough to charge them often so no need to touch on that.




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    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Apparently I was called out, or called a goat fucker, or something. I really have no idea. Im just along for the ride at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by CRXBMPN View Post
    King James has nothing on King Sac!

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    For one I don't care how many people come in saying the 2400.1's are good just because they use them because they aren't. With all of your nice equipment why cheap out on the amp? A Dc 2k, Aq 2200D or Sundown 2k/2.5k would all be much better options. Battery wise I had an Aq 2200D with a 102ah battery and a stock 160a alt. I had good voltage but, not good enough to demo for long periods of time. If you plan to do a lot of sitting demo's I would pick up two 75-100ah batts. Also if you plan to run it with your car off you will need an isolator.



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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Alright, now we're getting somewhere. Sounds like two batteries will be the solution for my intentions.

    As far as the amp, I was only considering the BB for it's apparent value. If it's truly a flawed peice of equipment I won't touch it. If it's getting a bad rep because of people who don't know how to use it, that's a different matter. This the info I'm trying to extract. If you guys could chime in as to why you're choosing one class D mono amp over another I would appreciate it. Is it the sound? Is it the build? etc...



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    I'm grateful for all the input so far, guys. This is new territory for me. School me...



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaonzo View Post
    Alright, now we're getting somewhere. Sounds like two batteries will be the solution for my intentions.

    As far as the amp, I was only considering the BB for it's apparent value. If it's truly a flawed peice of equipment I won't touch it. If it's getting a bad rep because of people who don't know how to use it, that's a different matter. This the info I'm trying to extract. If you guys could chime in as to why you're choosing one class D mono amp over another I would appreciate it. Is it the sound? Is it the build? etc...
    The BB2400.1 is hit or miss. I have heard some people who had issues soon on who knew what they were doing and others who had great experiences. They aren't the most reliable amps and the internals are pretty cheap hence them being budget amps. Personally I would rather run a Mb quart Onyx 2000d than a Planet Audio BB2400.1. Anyways some comparison pics of internals for you.

    BB2400.1



    Aq2200d



    Ia 20.1 (not dc 2k)



    Sundown 2000d and 2500d

    Top is the 2.5 bottom is the 2



    DC 2k




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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Good stuff, murph. Thanks for the effort.

    Myself, I can't tell which one of those is better. They all look to be built pretty well, even the BB. I do great when it comes to class A/B stuff but I have very little practical experience when it comes to class D layouts. I went with the Clarion for my current stuff (actually class G/H), not only because it was the right amount of power, but also because it was a Zeff design. It actually sounds beautiful but I only have one. Ideally, I could strap them and have 3k @ 4ohms if I could find another. That's a crazy amount of power for me, personally. 2k(ish) @ 1ohm from one amplifier sounds more reasonable to me. I think it would be enough.

    So you guys like the AQ? Sounds nice?



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Quote Originally Posted by ciaonzo View Post
    Good stuff, murph. Thanks for the effort.

    Myself, I can't tell which one of those is better. They all look to be built pretty well, even the BB. I do great when it comes to class A/B stuff but I have very little practical experience when it comes to class D layouts. I went with the Clarion for my current stuff (actually class G/H), not only because it was the right amount of power, but also because it was a Zeff design. It actually sounds beautiful but I only have one. Ideally, I could strap them and have 3k @ 4ohms if I could find another. That's a crazy amount of power for me, personally. 2k(ish) @ 1ohm from one amplifier sounds more reasonable to me. I think it would be enough.

    So you guys like the AQ? Sounds nice?
    The parts on the BB are really cheap and the board is HUGE for the amount of watts it puts out. The AQ will be the cheapest one that preforms better than the BB2400.1. The IA 20.1 is the beefiest and most well built IMO but, also costs the most. The benefit with the AQ is the subsonic goes down to 10hz while most of these are 20hz if you plan on playing any subsonic bass. When talking class D amps once you get out of the budget section they all sound the same for the most part. A lot of budget amps have a hard time playing the lows 30-20hz.



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    Sub: Boston acoustics G5 12 in a quasi 6th order
    Amp: Phoenix gold zx600.2 ti
    Front Speakers: Eclipse sc6500
    HIT UP FOR BASS ---> http://www.youtube.com/user/BassWithMurph?feature=mhee

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    Re: Need some pointers with pseudo SPL setup

    Quote Originally Posted by murph View Post
    A lot of budget amps have a hard time playing the lows 30-20hz.
    I find this most interesting since it's the exact purpose of the amplifier to deliver in that range, lol. Is that personal experience or a trend that you've notice in others mentioning in various discussions? I'm wondering if that's not simply a result of people setting maximum output at frequencies in the 40-50 region and not having the amplifier headroom for the demands of any frequency below that. So many variables involved with that aspect of performance.

    I plan to annihilate the 12hz to 24hz region and filter around 45hz to hand off to the front stage, so probably no use of SSF. I'm hoping things will just be excursion-limited (four 4 12's moving 3inches on subsonics) with obvious demands for high current delivery from the amplifier, but with enough high voltage delivery as it begins to get into the 30's and 40's. I do this all the time with single driver setups, just looking to scale it up.

    Dammit, I was hoping to go the value route with watts. I just want to find something that delivers numbers, doesn't break, and sounds good. So I should probably reset my budget for $300-$400, at least?



    Quote Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
    Saying "clipping doesn't kill speakers" is a half-truth at best. Technically no, clipping itself does not hurt the speaker. But in clipping your amp, you can easily create a situation that WILL kill the speaker. Was the squared waveform the DIRECT cause of the failure? No. In the end, the answer is, always has been, and can only be... heat kills speakers. BUT, clipping increases heat generation, sometimes by a drastic amount. So to start a thread simply to state that clipping does not hurt speakers is, again, a half-truth at best.

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