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    let's clear something up about amplifers

    If possible, I want to get a good discussion going that will help me tremendously and others as well. I'll try to be clear in exactly what my query is:

    Regarding sound quality (emphasis on sound quality alone), does the amplifier brand matter?

    I know some amps have more versitility and give you more control over a variety of parameters, I know that some amps won't last as long as others, I know some (and virtually all amp brands tout) amps are underrated, but I also know that all amps put out watts.

    Example: Amp X says 1000watts. Amp Y says 800 watts. Okay, in actuality Amp X puts out 1100watts and Amp Y puts out 1100 watts as well. Cool. Amp Y is a better brand and uses "better parts" to build the amp. However, Amp X isn't junk and is just as durable. Will Amp Y sound better?

    I hope that wasn't confusing, but if that could be answered with some sort of explanation, that should clear my confusion.

    Yes, I do have a relatively cheap amp that puts out 1500 rms watts that is not a JBL amp. I know JBLs aren't the best, but I did read someone's opinion that if it's cheap and not a JBL it shouldn't even be considered.

    I will try to expound on the confusion I still suffer. of course the subs play a major role in SQ and the install argueably plays the most important role, and yes, I've heard that the experts can make anything sound great, but given everything being equal/identical with the exception of the amplifier, and given that the amp does have a LP and HP filter, could buying a "higher quality" amp make a system sound better. In the case of my Hi Fonics that does have a LPF and SS filter, it definitely puts out the power and does not appear to show any signs of failing soon, but the amp was relatively cheap ($260 for 1500watts) and although I am satisfied, for my car audio edification, I can't help but wonder if a "better" amp will translate to noticeably better sound.

    Along these same lines, I read a thread about power being power and there was much disagreement there! Also, I have read that class D amps are more efficient (>power vs that wasted to heat), but that somehow class A or A/B amps sound better. I apologize for the length of this post, but I am really trying to understand this.

    Again, I know some amps are of bad quality because they will not last long, I know that some amps are of course better because they are more stable at lower impedences and use higher current, etc. But my lack of understanding is probably in the issue of distorted or clipped signals as it relates to the brand or quality of build of an amp.

    I hope that my question makes sense and that it can solicit responses beyond whatever sounds best to you.

    As always thanks...



    **********************
    head unit: Pioneer DEH-P7300

    amps: RF punch 100a2
    HiFonics Brutus BX1500D

    subs: 2 JL 12w6v2's

    speakers: 4 factory on head unit
    2 rear RF 6.5 50 watts rms




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    Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    what brand of amp are you planning on getting. power means nothing if it's a pathetic brand.




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    brand some times does not matter. The reason i say that is if you are new to the car audio seen then u do not know that older is most of the time better. Like sony and AutoTek. The old Autotek amps are the **** and that is no lie. And the new sony head unit are now coming close to there old mobile ES line. That stuff was the truth. But there Subs ***** and I would not touch there stuff when I first started.

    But abou that Class D stuff from what I have read Class D only does the low freq, and class A/B does all of the freqs.

    I am lazy and tired of typeing and I will read ur post again and answer the rest later.



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    I am actually not planning on buying any new amp anytime soon. I ask moreso for my information. I know that the pathetic brands are not even worth mentioning that's why I mentioned the fact that I have a HiFonics and people are always saying that JBL is the economic choice.

    It's not even a matter so much of being frugal, but rather just for understanding.

    In regards to the pathetic brands, I ALWAYS hear that they don't last long (duability). But there are numerous brands that are durable. Beyong the parameteres you have control over (knobs for filters, etc.) does one amp that puts out the same power (not rated but actually puts out identical power) as another sound any better. Some say yes, some say no, so my aim is to start a discussion that aims to explain different positions. I may have not done the best job of asking the question.

    Thanks



    **********************
    head unit: Pioneer DEH-P7300

    amps: RF punch 100a2
    HiFonics Brutus BX1500D

    subs: 2 JL 12w6v2's

    speakers: 4 factory on head unit
    2 rear RF 6.5 50 watts rms

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    Regarding Sound Quality, no- amplifiers will not have any effect whatsoever.

    Richard Clark has had an Amplifier Challenge out there for some time regarding this issue. Essentially it states that if anyone can prove that an amplifier will effect Sound Quality, or to break it down- that one amplfier will sound different than another, that he would pay them $10,000.00.

    Money is still in his pocket.

    I've performed a blind test with this scenario a couple of times, each time myself nor anyone else participating was able to discern any audible difference.

    Power wise- as previously mentioned a watt is a watt. If it were anything more or less, then it wouldnt be a watt now would it!


    take it easy,

    -zane





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    Some amps are better than others in that they offer more features or better slope i.e. 24db vs 12db. Also some amps are better than others because the use higher quality resistors. Example PG, arc, zapco,... use 1% tolerance resistors, while "cheaper" brands use 5% tolerance resistors. I believe that this does effect the sq somehow.



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    CRAZY!!! I Posted nearly a similiar question 2 weeks ago and got diffrent answers then this poll.


    And what are the rules for this $10.000 amp contest???
    cause I think I can prove that Fosgate sounds better then KRACO

    I gotta believe there is a diffrence, sound wise not loud wise...and it seems obvious this diffrence lies only in the component speaker area...not as important for powering subs.




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    Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    I think an that SQ doesnt depend on the power it puts out. i think SQ depends on what features the amp has. If a amp has a better crossover than another. ud be able to make the subs sound better than the other amp therefor bettter SQ. And Durability or efficency is also a factor. If a not as good amp overheats or gets really hot while powering stuff then that of course isnt good and MITE affect a bit of SQ a doubt it though. But that is why u would pay more for a JL amp rather that a JBL. Also u have to factor in advertisements that jump the price up. So to anser ur question I think a watt a power is a watt of power. but features on the amp can make it sound different and effiency of the amp can have u keeping the amp longer.



    Upcoming SQ competition ready install...
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    -12" Stereo Integrity Magnum in large sealed fiberglass wheel well enclosure.
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    Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    Quote Originally Posted by Depression
    CRAZY!!! I Posted nearly a similiar question 2 weeks ago and got diffrent answers then this poll.


    And what are the rules for this $10.000 amp contest???
    cause I think I can prove that Fosgate sounds better then KRACO

    I gotta believe there is a diffrence, sound wise not loud wise...and it seems obvious this diffrence lies only in the component speaker area...not as important for powering subs.

    Then you can make your arrangements to travel to Autosound and prove this to RC, and take home $10k if you succede.

    A recent quote from Mark Eldrige regarding the Amplifier test:

    "How many people have taken it now, Richard? Several thousand?

    Come on everybody. Somebody needs to take RCs money! He's been winning this challenge for way too long now.

    C-ya!
    --------------------
    Mark Eldridge


    Here's the run down of the rules:

    http://www.carsound.com/ubb/ultimate...=021942#000001

    More specifically:

    http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showt...threadid=18815


    If you think you can prove that one amp sounds better than another, by all means go for it.

    I still maintain however, RC still has the cash proving one can't.

    Interesting Food for thought anyway....

    take it easy,

    -zane





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    Here is an interesting spin on this amp thing. If I explain it right you will all know what I mean..this just came to me while watching TV.

    Off course we all are way into Car stereos now...but remember when you were not..try to think back......when you where young and before you could really even drive....
    Do you remember that time when the older guy on the street had a cool car..or maybe an older brother...you where riding your bike past thier house and started talking..then you sat in his car and turned on the Car Stereo and "BOOM"!!!!! WOW!!!!! "THIS IS A INSANE CAR STEREO SYSTEM!!!!!!""""..this was when we first learned about the names "Rockford Fosgate",,,or maybe HIFONICS" etc..etc...

    I remember in my younger years..sitting in a friends car (or even a Strangers) and instictivly knowing what "kind" of Amp this person had...merely based on the sound of the system.,,I have NEVER gotten into a car...heard a incredible sounding system and opened the trunk to discover 1000 watts of Jense!!!...or 2000 watts of Panasonic amplifiers..it was always Fosgate etc.. and usually it was more like only 250 watts not 1000 watts to my dismay....

    We all have had this happen to us and my point is that if there is NO diffrence between amps..then how do we instinctivly know a system has a "high class" amp without ever seeing what it really is..

    I hope you guys followed that story and understand my point...basically I know what Rockford Fosgate is and HIFONICS and KICKER...because of what I heard in a system...not because I was told they where good and simply bought one hoping it would sound good. we all started out with a crappy amp...if Amps don't matter..then why would we all be buying the so called "best" now????




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    Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    The "worst" of the proper functioning amplifiers out there (Jensen is a good example) has a THD of below .1% at RMS output. Certainly, RMS is well below what the claimed RMS is, but overstated power claims are not what we're discussing.

    That miniscule amount of distortion is so far below NOTHING in comparison to the massive inaccuracies of the *BEST* speaker in the world, No one, at all, could EVER truly identify or hear that distortion. Period.
    Now, there are exceptions - Kraco, for example, or Road Gear (there was one of these for sale at wal mart once, $5 for 200 watts with a 10 amp fuse), or those half-din "amplifier" EQ's. But as far as a real amplifier, Jensen is just as good as Fosgate, as long as you cut out the features and use similar powered units (not claimed power, real power - maybe a 300w jensen and a 100w fosgate, something like that...)
    1% vs 5% resistors is what you call "marketing"... It's an amplifier company that spent a bit extra on a completely irrelevant factor so that they could tout how "superior" they were.

    The reason one amp is 'better' than another is power output, features, impedence stability, that sort of thing - NOT sound quality. Sound quality is all up to the AMOUNT of power, HU quality, and driver quality.

    Oh - and as far as "how did we know he had a good brand amp?", it's simple - 99% of the time, the people that have good speakers, good heads, and good installs, just happen to have good brand amps too. And besides, like I said before; AMOUNT of power certainly does matter with SQ - the whole 'there is no difference' bit is assuming that we are comparing two amps with TRUE equal output power, not equal power claims.




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    Re: Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    Quote Originally Posted by defiance
    The "worst" of the proper functioning amplifiers out there (Jensen is a good example) has a THD of below .1% at RMS output. Certainly, RMS is well below what the claimed RMS is, but overstated power claims are not what we're discussing.

    That miniscule amount of distortion is so far below NOTHING in comparison to the massive inaccuracies of the *BEST* speaker in the world, No one, at all, could EVER truly identify or hear that distortion. Period.
    Now, there are exceptions - Kraco, for example, or Road Gear (there was one of these for sale at wal mart once, $5 for 200 watts with a 10 amp fuse), or those half-din "amplifier" EQ's. But as far as a real amplifier, Jensen is just as good as Fosgate, as long as you cut out the features and use similar powered units (not claimed power, real power - maybe a 300w jensen and a 100w fosgate, something like that...)
    1% vs 5% resistors is what you call "marketing"... It's an amplifier company that spent a bit extra on a completely irrelevant factor so that they could tout how "superior" they were.

    The reason one amp is 'better' than another is power output, features, impedence stability, that sort of thing - NOT sound quality. Sound quality is all up to the AMOUNT of power, HU quality, and driver quality.

    Oh - and as far as "how did we know he had a good brand amp?", it's simple - 99% of the time, the people that have good speakers, good heads, and good installs, just happen to have good brand amps too. And besides, like I said before; AMOUNT of power certainly does matter with SQ - the whole 'there is no difference' bit is assuming that we are comparing two amps with TRUE equal output power, not equal power claims.
    I agree mostly with your statement about the reason one amp is better than another with the exception of the part about sound quality is up to the amount of power, power should have no effect on sq. In an ideal situation the amp really shouldn't leave any sonic sig on the music unless it has a built in processor being used.

    By the way it's nice to have a fellow Arkansan on the forum, let me say welcome and I think you will find some really good views and be introduced to some great products here that's not readly avaliable locally........




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    Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    Actually, power is completely related to SQ - I think we're talking about two (kinda) different things What I mean is, a large portion of the audible distortion present in most systems is a result of clipping. Increasing power reduces clipping at any given volume. Thus, when you increase power, sound quality increase at a given volume




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    Re: Re: let's clear something up about amplifers

    Quote Originally Posted by defiance
    Actually, power is completely related to SQ - I think we're talking about two (kinda) different things What I mean is, a large portion of the audible distortion present in most systems is a result of clipping. Increasing power reduces clipping at any given volume. Thus, when you increase power, sound quality increase at a given volume
    In that context you are absolutly correct, I in turn am referring to a system playing a clean signal not reaching clipping. Given plently of clean power, a signal should be passed uncolored by the amplifier only amplified. The thd levels would be so minute that it would be inaudiable to the human ear, thus the challenge by Richard Clark.



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    well if watts are watts then why do people say do not buy Earthquake amps. And they say they are only good for bups because they have to much distortion. There is a difference between amps LIke road gear and Macintosh. To the guy that is offering 10,000 to any who can tell the difference between the amps. why does he not make a SQ car out of jensen amps and he can use any speaker brand he want.




    And more on a chanllege like that those amps could be modified. I have seen an US amp motherboard stuffed in RF case.


    And Kove has an 10,000 challenge on any one who has a better sub than the armorgedden. But every one claims that ED is the **** and the JL audio W7 is the best but I am a nobody so what do I know


    -Holla



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