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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Happy I read all of this thread, though some of the responses from Cadence seemed a little out of line, OP did not seem to be compliant

    Best way to describe this thread?




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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    i almost jumped on the bandwagon on this, then ACTUALLY did some research!

    OP... i think you need to give them more time to answer your question... realize that most of the customer support people you will deal with, are not the actual engineers... so it may take them more then 24 hours to get back to you. hostility is never the right answer with something like this... it just always turns out bad.

    i can understand your frustration, and agree with you, that the changes could easily make many things different between revisions... but, just saying, this could have been handled better



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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Well, so far, the stance from Cadence has been one of surprise and concern, initially, which I respect that. Then from Mr Jake Lock's letter, he was very confrontational and while thumping his chest, he stated the changes where made intentionally to upgrade the driver. He also made reference to how every speaker manufacturer strives to be like Cadence. Now.... the stance is back to "Holy Shit!! Let's call China to see WTF is going on!".

    Here are my issues with the whole thing:
    1) They promised to call the guy back and didn't. He spent lots of money on their product and they didnt even give him the courtesy to call him back and let him know that they were further investigating what was going on.
    2) If what Mr Jake said is true, and they were indeed trying to improve the driver(which I cant possibly see how what they did was an improvement), why didnt they alter the model number on these new subs so people would know they are different? Or at the very least, let their customer base know that changes had been made. That there makes me think they were trying to pull a fast one because the newly bought drivers just might be inferior due to corners being cut.
    3) the inconsistency- is there any communication over there? The different stories from reps from Cadence screams "cover up" and "panic". At least get your stories together.
    I don't know whats going on, I almost really don't care, but I am certainly glad this came to light before I purchased any of their products.

    With all that said, I'm sure Cadence does in fact make some fine products. Hell, after the tests of the new sub, there might not be any difference at all. My issue is with the customer service. Something I think this company needs to focus on more in the future.

    P.S. I do admire Mr Roy, he seems to be the only one in this whole deal that is actually trying to resolve this issue. But then again, he is the one stuck in the middle of all this mess.




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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    I dont see how I jumped to conclusions. Like stated many times I am not seeing any upgrades on this revision that will make it a true upgrade. Really if they are that hard set on upgrades the focus should be on QC as China isn't aligning the coils very well on the assembly line and causing specs from every other woofer to also be within .5db sens of each other.

    I think I was being very reasonable. I called asked to speak to someone was put on hold then told "sorry they switch build-houses" , "nothing they can do". So i call back within 20min and ask to speak to a supervisor, put on hold.... Then told i would be "getting a call back" and not to "post nothing about this as it will travel fast" Says the amplifier tech. So that leads me to believe he knew something about the altered plates and didn't want me saying anything until I get a call back.

    Nearly all day goes by and I don't get a return call. I discuss this over with another speaker engineer who does it for a hobby and told me all those alterations will make the TSP's shift drastically". Not that they will line up anyway with their publish specs because the other model didn't either, according to klippel tests. Seeing as this person has done tests and had hands in developments on speakers I know he is very trustworthy and has a lot more knowledge than me. Since this person is in a different state and getting him a speaker to test would take a while, I needed to get a build done before this coming weekend for an IASCA event, I asked how he thought they would work with my current box. One that was built to his specs according to Klippel tests of the Rev2 CVL8-500-4. He replied saying if the top and bottom plates are altered within a 16th from the rev2 they would nearly affect every TSP and change nearly everything on how it reacted in the gap of the sub. I would have to build a different box then what I currently have. He stated power handling could be affected as well as transient response. They would react different with my power I was using and so on... So later that evening I posted the awareness thread because I know there are many people jumping to buy them on Amazon and to be cautious as they would have different TSP's and require a different box setup.

    Realistically, I am not seeing how I'm being hostel or non compliant. I have been sitting awaiting for a phone call as to why the alterations were made if it was such an "upgrade" More over every time I see something it appears to be more of a cover after cover so there is no admission of the factory in China making a mishap. Which does happen, hell they can't even align coils properly.

    There's no doubt in my mind they wont work for some people. But I am not "some people". The alteration would require me to rebuild and adjust to get optimum out of these which in turn most likely still wouldn't help with my scores.

    This whole thing was posted to let people know about the new revisions, considering Cadence didn't have the courtesy to let the audio enthusiast community know before hand. And that there would be knew parameters for these models as soon as possible. I am not arguing as my grounds of basis is very solid. I will have valid Klippel accurate proof (which in case everyone don't know is the truest form of publishing speaker TSP's) of the new specs versus the rev2 series. I am not arguing anything other than if the VP claims this was done in accordance to upgrade the speaker in output wise, then why didnt they publish the new specs of what was upgraded. Most certainly I'm sure they know very well about marketing, so they would want to advertise the hell out of these new revisions to let the world know they have been upgraded from their previous revisions.

    Roy, i am not outing nor being hostel, just pointing out the cold hard facts. I was told a phone call would happen and even on the 2nd day you replied with " what is your contact number" and to "please email you" because my PM box was full. That as a matter was not even close to full. You seem very stand up but it more and more appears to still be a giant cover up and to try and prove me wrong without any valid proof of an upgrade. I am all ears, but I definitely don't want to hear what Chinas excuse is for the remake because they haven't got many things right the 5th time around.

    Is there a real speaker designer/engineer there that can test and pull appropriate measurements and publish them accordingly, or is he off again? Surely if there was a remodel of this series done by your "engineer" then he should be able to post a CAD view of the drafted motors before production. There should be nothing to hide there as you all still seem to think everyone is copying your equipment anyway.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PV Audio View Post
    It will never be proved that loudness is somehow related to SPL because it isn't.

    Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels or sound intensity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Kulicki
    Building a stereo just to measure it's sound pressure level is like building a microwave oven for no reason other than to measure it's electromagnetic radiation emissions.

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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    You do know that 99% of all posted T/S for every company is not correct and are out of date right? So should we post a thread for every company because of revisions changing various parameters(for better or worse)? As most companies have various revisions and never post anything about them...almost all of them unless it is a model change you/I never know.

    I'm not saying that practice is right by any means. Just part of the industry. I have had a company send me 3 revisions of a driver to test with in 2 months. Each were sold and all used the same model number. Not every revision turns out better, but all start with that intention.


    Posting on every forum and leaving negative reviews is hostile and well over bearing for the situation. I'm sorry you feel different, but this is why many companies just stop caring about anything except the bottom dollar.




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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    I will admit in stating its a "cover up". What else am I to think? You guys claim to have a speaker engineer yet you have to email China for specs. I ask about the upgrade over the phone and nothing was told to me what was upgraded. I dont think anyone is "lambasting" you, they just want valid answers as much as i do. Like I said earlier though, this is proving to be a huge run-around with how responses go in terms to answers. With this Rev4 coming out with the new basket, are they changing from cast to stamped or what?

    And for the record Mr. Starling, i did not call anyone from Cadence or accuse them of being "shady". I clearly stated "shady Bob" (dont know his last name and dont care) from American Bass, calling and throwing a fit to the buildhouse. Because that is exactly the kind of person he is. The American Bass xd8 is/was a near clone of the CVL8-500-4 and it would be of his shadiness to call and throw a fit because of that hence the change in design aspects and aesthetics.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PV Audio View Post
    It will never be proved that loudness is somehow related to SPL because it isn't.

    Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels or sound intensity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Kulicki
    Building a stereo just to measure it's sound pressure level is like building a microwave oven for no reason other than to measure it's electromagnetic radiation emissions.

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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    I would say call Monday and ask from Roy. I'm sure he would be more then happy to speak with you and to help you understand what is going on and what options there are to fix the situation.

    I think everyone involved would like to find a good ending for this one. Hope both parties can get it worked out in a more civil situation.




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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by pro-rabbit View Post
    You do know that 99% of all posted T/S for every company is not correct and are out of date right? So should we post a thread for every company because of revisions changing various parameters(for better or worse)? As most companies have various revisions and never post anything about them...almost all of them unless it is a model change you/I never know.

    I'm not saying that practice is right by any means. Just part of the industry. I have had a company send me 3 revisions of a driver to test with in 2 months. Each were sold and all used the same model number. Not every revision turns out better, but all start with that intention.


    Posting on every forum and leaving negative reviews is hostile and well over bearing for the situation. I'm sorry you feel different, but this is why many companies just stop caring about anything except the bottom dollar.
    Yes I do know this but there is a law, I believe, that anything published for advertisement only has to be within a 29% correct. Yes not every company has 100% accurate TSP specs but they are within a 29% of advertised spec or at least I hope. My so called "hostility" is due to the fact I thought for sure Cadence customer support was far better than a non return phone call and paragraphs of upgrades without valid proof. I was merely hoping for the best I suppose and got a bit carried away in hopes for an easy swap and be on my way.

    I know this kind of situation is unacceptable by me and in hopes they would correct things at the new build-house in China. But as I said earlier, I have no problem returning them for a refund but I will post new specs and would like to know more from the company about all these upgrades made in Rev2 and 3 and soon to be 4.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PV Audio View Post
    It will never be proved that loudness is somehow related to SPL because it isn't.

    Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels or sound intensity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Kulicki
    Building a stereo just to measure it's sound pressure level is like building a microwave oven for no reason other than to measure it's electromagnetic radiation emissions.

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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by TnT_Sounds View Post
    Yes I do know this but there is a law, I believe, that anything published for advertisement only has to be within a 29% correct. Yes not every company has 100% accurate TSP specs but they are within a 29% of advertised spec or at least I hope. My so called "hostility" is due to the fact I thought for sure Cadence customer support was far better than a non return phone call and paragraphs of upgrades without valid proof. I was merely hoping for the best I suppose and got a bit carried away in hopes for an easy swap and be on my way.

    I know this kind of situation is unacceptable by me and in hopes they would correct things at the new build-house in China. But as I said earlier, I have no problem returning them for a refund but I will post new specs and would like to know more from the company about all these upgrades made in Rev2 and 3 and soon to be 4.
    Actually every company that I know of has a clause saying specs can/will change with out notice. Or something to that affect thus releasing them from that legality.




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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    and to add to my list of questions;

    Was it the build-house that took it upon them self to do a revision or was it actually implemented by the company and if so for what reason was the switch of build-house?



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    Quote Originally Posted by PV Audio View Post
    It will never be proved that loudness is somehow related to SPL because it isn't.

    Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels or sound intensity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Kulicki
    Building a stereo just to measure it's sound pressure level is like building a microwave oven for no reason other than to measure it's electromagnetic radiation emissions.

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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by TnT_Sounds View Post
    and to add to my list of questions;

    Was it the build-house that took it upon them self to do a revision or was it actually implemented by the company and if so for what reason was the switch of build-house?
    good luck getting that answer from any company out there... not trying to bash on you... just saying



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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by TnT_Sounds View Post
    and to add to my list of questions;

    Was it the build-house that took it upon them self to do a revision or was it actually implemented by the company and if so for what reason was the switch of build-house?
    I would have to say from an industry stand point, those are "need to know answers" only. They would be considered trade secretes and should not be revealed. I know more then my share and if I ever divulge such information many companies would have a large back lash I'm sure, and I would find my self on the wrong end of a lawsuit and quickly. Most companies have various forms of confidentiality agreements to protect such information from become public.

    I'm not trying to be brisk, but most of what your asking shouldn't be answered.




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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by pro-rabbit View Post
    Actually every company that I know of has a clause saying specs can/will change with out notice. Or something to that affect thus releasing them from that legality.
    Ahhh.. yes yes and when I spoke to the amp tech from Cadence he made that very clear, "they can change whatever they want and dont have to say anything." Yet you would think they would want to let everyone know they did an upgrade.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PV Audio View Post
    It will never be proved that loudness is somehow related to SPL because it isn't.

    Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels or sound intensity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Kulicki
    Building a stereo just to measure it's sound pressure level is like building a microwave oven for no reason other than to measure it's electromagnetic radiation emissions.

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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by pro-rabbit View Post
    I would have to say from an industry stand point, those are "need to know answers" only. They would be considered trade secretes and should not be revealed. I know more then my share and I ever divulge such information many companies would have a large back lash I'm sure, and I would find my self on the wrong end of a lawsuit and quickly.

    I'm not trying to be brisk, but most of what your asking shouldn't be answered.

    Without wanting to know the change of build-houses everything else is viable to the consumer I'm sure. I and probably everyone else wants to know what the upgrades are.

    I dont care really that much anymore as I know what the outcome is of these rev2 series. I will be getting a refund however I would like to know what all these upgrades are regarding the smaller motor structure. If they are onto something that is a new world discovery in terms of speaker building I will have no problem still running them.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PV Audio View Post
    It will never be proved that loudness is somehow related to SPL because it isn't.

    Loudness, a subjective measure, is often confused with objective measures of sound pressure such as decibels or sound intensity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Kulicki
    Building a stereo just to measure it's sound pressure level is like building a microwave oven for no reason other than to measure it's electromagnetic radiation emissions.

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    Re: Attn: Cadence users and 8" fans!

    Quote Originally Posted by TnT_Sounds View Post
    Ahhh.. yes yes and when I spoke to the amp tech from Cadence he made that very clear, "they can change whatever they want and dont have to say anything." Yet you would think they would want to let everyone know they did an upgrade.
    It is more along the lines that in some cases when using a foreign build house you do not always know when the new version will be shipped out. Thus meaning you never know when to release info and/or adjust the site itself.

    Again, I'm not defending them. I'm speaking in general terms as I'm sure this will stand for almost every company out there.




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