PDA

View Full Version : Output Transformerless SET designs vs. "regular" ones



JimJ
04-18-2005, 03:11 PM
I've been sort of looking at one of these: http://www.transcendentsound.com/single%20ended.htm for a while now, to replace my current power amp...my DIY speaker design could be wired to 16 ohms to give it full power output, so that would work well. I'm just not that familar with OTL designs and why/if they're superior to regular single-ended amplifier stages.

I figure that most people here wouldn't know the answer, but all I need is a few opinions :up2somet:

Thanks in advance.

req
04-18-2005, 03:19 PM
ive got three and a half of those two on the side top. they work ok in most times if you mount them sideways on the back (but not at nighttime)

hope that helps :laugh:




lol! sorry - i dont know jack **** about this stuff ^_^

JimJ
04-18-2005, 04:26 PM
Die :)

PV Audio
04-18-2005, 05:27 PM
if pakiah would come back, he may be able to help u

JimJ
04-18-2005, 05:30 PM
Pakiah had experiences with PP tubes, if I'm not mistaken...he had a EL34 and most recently, a KT88 PP integrated. Didn't mess around with SET.

DesertHeat was the only one around here that I remember being interested in OTL.

I think I'm just going with a regular 2A3 power amp...if someone will buy my current one :)

analogkid
04-18-2005, 06:12 PM
i would love to hear one of those. its something i will probably never see, but it is im sure the purest sound reproduction you can find. everything today is something digital trying to replicate what the older technologly was.

JimJ
04-18-2005, 06:39 PM
but it is im sure the purest sound reproduction you can find.

It's different than solid-state, but I'm not sure about "purest" - after all, we are talking about amps that have 4-5% THD :) Even-order harmonics, maybe, but still harmonic distortion...

I disagree that everything digital is designed to emulate older gear. I know only of a few pure Class A solid-state designs (one of them, the Pass Labs First Watt, is a beautiful 10wpc MOSFET creation, but there are only 100 in existence). Newer gear is built, primarily, to keep mass-market consumers that don't know any better happy with their all-in-one-box-systems. Meanwhile, high-end solid-state designs are going up and up in power...do you really need 300W RMS in a 2 channel system? What's been lost is the superior build quality and construction in consumer-grade gear (those old Magnavox and Eico/Hammond console amplifiers were built for the mass market, and they still kick the socks off stuff built today, while you need to spend mucho $$$ to get current gear that will last anywhere near as long), and the attention to detail in a fleapower audio setup. Those are hard to find these days.

PV Audio
04-18-2005, 11:30 PM
BUT, tubes are rather inefficent and require good amounts of hardware to make serious power. and above all else, they are $$$$$$$$

JimJ
04-18-2005, 11:33 PM
BUT, tubes are rather inefficent and require good amounts of hardware to make serious power. and above all else, they are $$$$$$$$

That's part of the point...you don't need serious power for pure enjoyment of music. 2 watts can fill a medium-sized room if you do your homework with the speakers. You can't just throw any old amp together with any speaker and expect to get the best results. If you're throwing a party or reproducing home theater at reference levels, that's a different story; tubes wouldn't be the best choice for those uses.

As for being expensive - yes, on a dollar/watt basis they're several times more expensive than anything SS. But overall? They're still very affordable if you find the right products, or build your own...

req
04-18-2005, 11:47 PM
yea man. the top side ones with the red serial numbers at the bottom corner on the west side work awesome if those are the ones you are talking about :)

is yours the kind with the bottom\front thats rounded on the side sort of? didnt you wanna get rid of that? cuz you can always send them to me. i think ill find use for it someday.

:laugh:

i love you jack :)
thanks for the koda8's.

JimJ
04-18-2005, 11:53 PM
thanks for the koda8's.

:confused:

Is that your slang term for "favors"? :rolleyes:

PV Audio
04-18-2005, 11:58 PM
That's part of the point...you don't need serious power for pure enjoyment of music. 2 watts can fill a medium-sized room if you do your homework with the speakers. You can't just throw any old amp together with any speaker and expect to get the best results. If you're throwing a party or reproducing home theater at reference levels, that's a different story; tubes wouldn't be the best choice for those uses.

As for being expensive - yes, on a dollar/watt basis they're several times more expensive than anything SS. But overall? They're still very affordable if you find the right products, or build your own...
folded horn?

JimJ
04-19-2005, 12:05 AM
That's one way to go, yes.

desertheat
05-17-2005, 04:16 PM
Ah the otl :) If you happen to ever get one you will be in for pure bliss. So open, so clean and they have BOTTOM END!! Yes real smooth clean botton end! Otls are often though to have near 0 bottom end, but not the trancendants. One of the best designs and amps I have ever heard.

Also yes guys, 2 watts can be magical and fill a whole room, no doubt about that!

JimJ
05-17-2005, 11:31 PM
Have you done any ABX comparisons with single-ended triodes?

I think my next project is going to be 2A3's single-ended, to give you an idea of where I'm going...

Beat_Dominator
05-18-2005, 12:00 AM
Folded horns ****, I'm all about electro-stats. :p:

JimJ
05-18-2005, 12:08 AM
Electrostats are nice...if you have the 150+W to power them correctly :)

Don't get me wrong, I have a NAD 3020 and JBL 3way's, plus enough subwooferage to do some serious damage in the main HT system.

But sometimes, only a few watts is all that's needed...

Beat_Dominator
05-18-2005, 12:17 AM
Sure it is. Tubes are deffinately a different animal.

squeak9798
05-18-2005, 04:18 PM
http://www.splbassx.com/forums/html/emoticons/myhijacked2.gif

Hey Jacky...and good tube amps out there for ~$250?? Even just a kit? Something in the ~5-9w range? Also, can just a "standard" receiver work for the input to the tube amp? How well are tubes suited to home theater use?

Thinking about picking up Adire's HE10.1 kit. I like the idea of a simple, high efficiency co-axial, and would like to power it with tubes if I do end up picking it up :)


I'm a tube virgin :blush:

JimJ
05-18-2005, 04:27 PM
I love that smiley :D It's so wrong, but yet...so right ;)

Well, what kind of tube amps are you looking at? You could pick up a decent Magnavox console amp that uses push/pull EL84 pentodes off Ebay for that price range, but IMO, single-ended triodes are going to give you more of the "tube sound". There are SET's out there for $250, but you have to watch Audiogon and Ebay for them. Expect to get around 2 watts per channel with EL84's/6BQ5's. 5-9 watts single-ended is going to be more pricey, but push/pull can be easily done.

This guy: http://abraxasaudio.home.att.net/quicklist.html is building my next amp for around $700, but I don't know what he charges for smaller projects. A used pair of Antique Sound Labs Wave 8 monoblocks would fit your budget at around $200 for the pair, have 8 watts per channel, and give you a good taste for tubes. The only two drawbacks are that they're push/pull, and use solid-state rectifiers. But, they're a good place to start. They come up on Audiogon and Ebay every now and then.

The only problem with Adire's kit is that it uses a crossover - it would probably be cheaper to get two Fostex or similar high-efficiency full range drivers, and build a backloaded folded horn for it. No crossovers needed at all.

A standard receiver would work if it has a pre-amp output - I know my NAD does, but I'm not sure all do. And that's only a concern if you buy a power amp. Of course, an integrated tube amp will have a driver stage. I'm selling my all-tube preamp, but it's basically your budget right there :)

Tubes for HT? Well, it can certainly be done, but not for $250. You'd need big power pentodes or tetrodes, something like a few KT88's running push/pull for around 40-50W per channel, so monoblocks running to an external Dolby processor would be the way to go. It would be expensive, but quite a sight. And of course, the subwoofer amp would have to be solid state anyway.

Hope this helps...PM me if you have any more questions, or catch me over on SSA :)

squeak9798
05-18-2005, 04:36 PM
Yeah, I know...crossovers are the devil :p: But they seem to fit the criteria for tubes pretty well; relatively flat impedence, decently high efficiency, etc etc. And almost every review I've seen for them has used tubes to power them. I believe at SEMA Adire had tubies on them aswell.


Also, for HT, I wasn't talking full surround sound. Just a simple L & R channel.....


Thanks for the rest of the suggestions. Need to go learn myself a little bit more about tubies, then I'm sure there will be more questions to come :D