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squeak9798
02-23-2005, 05:22 PM
I figured this forum needed a sticky (since every other forum has one). And so, here is my pathetic attempt at a sticky-worthy thread :thumbupw:


Co-axial vs Components

What's the difference?

Co-axials are speakers that have the tweeter permanently mounted in the middle of the midwoofer. Co-axials typically do not have external passive crossovers.....only a capacitor in-line with the tweeter to highpass the tweeter. They are generally much cheaper than components, and will work well off of headunit power (but will perform well off of external amplification aswell).

Components have separate midwoofers and tweeters as well as an external passive crossover. The midwoofers and tweeters are separated for a number of reasons.....for example, to allow optimal speaker placement. The passive crossovers are usually quite complex (for more advanced than what's used for co-axials) and are designed to optimize the performance of the speakers (by way of crossover points, crossover slopes, tweeter attenuation, tweeter protection, impedence compensation [zobel network], etc etc). The speakers used in component sets are typically of much higher quality and better performance that those used in co-axials. Typically components are best used with external amplification only.

squeak9798
02-23-2005, 05:23 PM
2-Way vs. 3-Way

In a perfect world, we'd have a single speaker that could reproduce all frequencies perfectly, 20hz to 20khz. Unfortunately for us, such speaker does not exist…..so, we need to break the frequency spectrum down and play it through multiple speakers (mids, tweeters, subs, etc). This is where we get "2-ways, 3-ways, 5-ways, etc" from.

In co-axials, a 2-way speaker is a speaker that contains only a midwoofer and a tweeter…..the midwoofer playing the lower frequencies (down to around 80hz or so), the tweeter playing the higher frequencies (around 3khz or 4khz and up). 3-way co-axials typically have a midwoofer, tweeter and "supertweeter", with the supertweeter being designated to handle the very, very high frequencies only. Co-axials can go as high as 5-way (midwoofer, midrange, smaller midrange, tweeter and supertweeter). For all intents and purposes, anything more than 2-way in co-axials is a marketing gimmick. Going with 3-way co-axials or higher usually does not increase performance much, if at all.

For component speakers, a 3-way system includes a dedicated midbass (generally plays around 60hz-350hz), a dedicated midrange (generally plays around 350hz-6500hz or so), and a tweeter (generally 6500hz and up). Whereas a 2-way system is only a midwoofer (playing around 60hz-4000hz or so) and a tweeter (4000hz and up). Ideally, for a 3-way system, you'd want to put the midbass in your door, and have kicks built for the midrange & tweeter. For a 2-way component set, kickpanels or door mounting will suffice with generally good results.

General advantages of a 3-way component set:

1) There isn't a crossover point in the middle of the midrange frequencies (which are generally the most important to imaging and tonality), and they aren't being split up between drivers like they sometimes are in a 2-way setup. In a 3-way, they will be played by mainly one speaker, which is the dedicated midrange.

2) In a lot of cars, the mids will need to be flipped out of phase to help correct some midrange frequency phasing problems. In a 2-way system where one speaker plays midrange & midbass, running one of them out of phase will decrease the midbass impact. By running a 3-way, the midrange can be flipped out of phase and it has no effect on the midbass since it is being played by a separate driver.

3) The midrange and midbass frequencies in a 3-way may sound "cleaner" since each speaker has more of a limited bandwidth to play.

Disadvantages of a 3-way component set:

1) Tuning and aiming the speakers can be a much bigger pain the *** with 3-ways. Installation, tuning, phasing and aiming speakers will be much easier/quicker to perfect with 2-ways.

2) Room. It can be much more difficult find the room to fit all of the speakers. In some cars, kickpanels are simply out of the question.

3) Money. 3-ways are normally considerably more expensive than 2-ways.

As you can see, 3-ways aren't necessarily better than 2-way. It's more of a personal preference. Some ppl would rather have a 3-way (for the advantages above), some ppl would rather have a 2-way (easier to tune, less room is occupied, etc).

kickerlivinloud
02-23-2005, 05:23 PM
..

Nikuk
02-23-2005, 05:24 PM
Not bad, overall.

Just curious... What about equal wavelengths? IB vs Sealed vs Ported? Beaming? etc....

:p:

Bigrick31
02-23-2005, 05:41 PM
crossover points, crossover slopes, tweeter attenuation, tweeter protection, impedence compensation [zobel network]

Im sure there are a lot of people who dont know what some of those mean. including myself.

iceteebone
02-23-2005, 05:47 PM
what would also help is how an active setup works

JimJ
02-23-2005, 06:40 PM
There are speakers that play full range quite well, maybe you can't fit a set of Weems or Voight pipes in a vehicle, but they do exist and are in common usage :)

Echo42987
02-24-2005, 12:09 AM
Thanx for the Info Squek You rock man...

MrBill2U
02-25-2005, 02:20 PM
crossover points, crossover slopes, tweeter attenuation, tweeter protection, impedence compensation [zobel network]


Im sure there are a lot of people who dont know what some of those mean. including myself.

I have lurked here for a while. I figure the least I can do is toss out some info. Most of this is pretty basic, but for the sake of completeness I will try and provide some info about each of those terms.

Crossover Points I am sure you have heard the term 20 to 20 in refering to audio. Sound is just pulses of air pressure our ears can pick up. Frequencies are measured in cycles per second (Hz) which is just the number of pulses which happen each second. If your speaker moves back and forth 80 times in a second it is playing an 80Hz tone. It is generally acepted that the range of human hearing is 20Hz to 20KHz. KHZ is KiloHertz or 1000Hz. If you know piano, the fundamental tone for middle C on a Piano is about 263 Hz. You will not find any speaker anywhere which can produce 20Hz all the way up to 20KHz (that will fit in your car or that you can afford). That is why you use some combination of tweeters and woofers to reproduce sound. A typical 2 way component set will have the tweets covering notes from 3KHz-20KHz and the midbass covering from 80Hz-3KHz. The sub covers 20Hz-80Hz. In the system I just described the crossover points would be 80Hz (where the sub gives way to the midbass) and 3KHz ( where the midbass gives way to the tweeters)

Crossover Slopes In the above example I listed a midbass/tweeter crossover point of 3KHz. If I were to unplug my midbass speaker and play a 1.5 KHz tone I should not hear anything, right? Wrong. The hand off between two speakers is very gradual. If you take two speakers playing the exact same note at the exact same db, the result would be 3db higher than one speaker. Since the falloff of a speaker is gradual, the crossover point is the tone where both speakers are down 3db. There are a few common crossover slopes: 6db, 12db, 18db and 24db. These are know respectively as 1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order and 4th order. What does this mean? In my example from above, if the crossover slope was 3rd order (18db) it means that for every octave below the crossover frequency the sound fades off at 18db. So if we were to unplug our midbass and play a 1500Hz tone (one octave below 3KHz) it would be 18db below a 3KHz tone played into the tweeter.

tweeter attenuation In most car audio environments the tweeters end up very close to your ears while the mids end up further away. Since the tweeters and mids are playing at the same level it would make the tweeters sound louder than the mids since they are closer. This is why many crossovers will have tweeter connections for 0db, -3db, -6db etc... This allows you to lower the power to your tweets so you can match them to the volume of your mids. This is known as tweeter attenuation. FYI since every 3db drop is half power if you have your tweets set to -6db and running off a 100watt RMS amplifier you are actually only sending 25watts to your tweeters.

tweeter protection Like any speaker, if you stress them too much they will break. Some crossovers will have fuses installed between your amp and tweeters that will blow at a predetermined wattage to prevent you from blowing a tweeter.

impedence compensation [zobel network] This one is a bit harder to explain without getting into crossover design theory. Basically in order to design a crossover you need to know what the impedance of the speaker is. The components for a 3Khz, 6db slope crossover are totally different if you are using a 4ohm speaker rather than an 8ohm speaker. The problem comes into play near the resonant frequency of the speaker. As a speaker aproaches it's resonant frequency it tend to resist electricity more. For example, in a common 6ohm tweeter with a resonant frequency of 1Khz, the amplifier may see a 12 ohm load at 1Khz rather than a 6ohm load. This REALLY messes with crossovers because they suddenly see a 12ohm load and their crossoover point changes for that moment!!! A zobel network is normally used when you are driving tweeters down to a point near their resonant frequency. It is a set of components which divert power through a resistor near a particualr frequency (normally tuned to the resonant frequency of the tweeter) so as to show the crossover and amplifier a more consistant resistance.

req
03-01-2005, 02:01 PM
good stuff as always squeak. and thank you mr bill, that all seems on the mark.

but people (even myself sometimes :) ) wont understand what a 'crossover slope' is, unless they SEE a graph of both points, with the rolloffs. this is how they will understand, so this is my contribution.

Crossover Points Cont'd - now you all know that a crossover point is meant to limit each speakers 'bandwidth' (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bandwidth) so that each speaker can only play that certain range of frequencies, and retain a higher volume and better clarity. this is the reason we use components with passive corssovers, or an active crossover that we can select the exact points.

you should also understand that a crossover WILL NOT act as a 'brick wall' and stop the speaker from playing that frequency. a crossover is meant to limit the extenstion of the speaker so that it will not play frequencies it was not designed to play at loud volumes. this means that there will be an 'overlap' of frequencies.

for example (and this is ONLY for example, i highly doubt you will see this kind of crossover and respose curves... ever) this is a subwoofer (a GREAT subwoofer mind you ;) ) and a midbass speaker, lets say an 8" speaker.

http://img238.exs.cx/img238/7465/frequency1vc.gif

as you can see, the point where they 'dip' together is the crossover point (please correct me if im wrong). this point (by looking at the graph) is 80hz. this is normally where people set thier subwoofers and midrange - its practically a 'rule of thumb' to try about 80hz on your frist try, and go up or down from there depending on if YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. because noone can tell you what you like and what you dont like. this is 100% subjective.

now, as the speakers 'roll off', or start to play the frequencies below\above their crossover points, that frequency will get lower. here is the tricky part. since the other speaker is picking up that frequency as its companion drops it, the music wont sound like there is a giant hole (or it shouldnt if the points are set well).

Refrence Level - this is somthing that people usually dont comprehend eaither. a 'refrence level' stereo system- is a system that can FULLY REPRODUCE, at any volume level that it is capable of, 20hz->20khz with no distortion. now, it may sound easy by reading all this stuff we are teaching you, but its not qute that simple. the '0db' setting most of you see on your home theatre recievers, or stereos, refers to the *CURRENT* volume, or the standard volume, or whatever volume it will produce with how many watts the amplifiers are producing, if you turn the knob down from 0db, you will be ATTENUATING (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ATTENUATING) the signal through the amplifier - and thus, your system will more than not, be below 0db. for example, we have a single 10" speaker playing a 50hz tone (in and out 50 times per second), about the middle of the 'sub bass' frequencies. we are feeding it 500 watts of power in whatever box, and whatever car. when we put a microphone in the car, the car reads 100db. that is the pressure level of the air as the speaker moves in and out, its a way to measure volume (as most of you SHOULD know). now, REFRENCE LEVEL, means that EVERY FREQUENCY (or **** near it) should be able to play 100db. so our tweeters playing a tone of 5631.245hz should be able to play 100db, and likewise, the midrange should be able to play 235.654hz at 100db. this is the '0db' mark. say the system is at a volume of 20, and its hitting 96db, ALL FREQUENCIES should be able to play a 96db note. this is refrence level - all your frequencies have a 'FLAT' response curve. and this is what that looks like;

flat response (good)
http://img238.exs.cx/img238/365/graph10ql.gif

versus a peaky and valley response curve (not good)
http://img238.exs.cx/img238/7441/graph24fj.gif

now, some people LIKE peaks and valleys in certain spots. this is fine. this is why stereos are subjective. some people cant hear distortion (sure :rolleyes: ) - and thats fine too. but 0db means at whatever volume that knob is at, an entire 20hz-20khz sweep should mic evenly. it wont be exact. but you get the point.

please feel free to add anything that i might have missed. hope it helps.

Raven
03-01-2005, 09:45 PM
Round Speakers VS Oval Speakers
The subject goes as follows: A 5.25" speaker can fit in a stock 5x7" location, and a 6"-6.5" speaker can fit in a stock 6x9" location. So which should you use? It's quite simple. A round speaker is more likely to have weight evenly distributed against the Voice Coil and VC Former. This means that you can achieve clearer sound with a round speaker that with an oval speaker. On the flipside, an oval speaker will obviously have more cone area. With the same excursion as the round speaker, the larger oval cone produces more sound. An oval speaker is capable of getting louder and usually producing more mibbass than a round speaker.

There are a great many exceptions, more and more as the quality of your speakers goes up, but this is the general overview.

91ser
03-08-2005, 06:29 PM
ok, so let me see if i understand this

i have my subwoofer set up at 75hz at a 12db slope, that means, that it plays a 75hz note loud, and anything deviating from that will get progressively quieter?? so if i want to here a broader range from my subwoofer, i will turn the slope down, and possible to 0db??

so if i have it set at 0db, then the point that i choose for the crossover wont matter?? or will it just cut off frequencies higher than 75hz??

thx for answering a noobs quesions
Patrick

req
03-08-2005, 07:09 PM
ok, so let me see if i understand this

i have my subwoofer set up at 75hz at a 12db slope, that means, that it plays a 75hz note loud, and anything deviating from that will get progressively quieter??

if this is a LOW PASS FILER (filters out EVERYTHING but the LOW frequencies), it will cut off everything ABOVE 75hz. and at that point, the volume of everything above that point will decline and 12db PER octave (octave = 1\2 lower, or 2x higher)

[see the black graph above, and look at the white line. this is a subwoofer with an 80hz low pass filter]


so if i want to here a broader range from my subwoofer, i will turn the slope down, and possible to 0db??

as its a LOW PASS FILTER, and it will filter everything ABOVE that point out of the speaker. so in order to hear MORE and play HIGHER frequencies, you will need to turn it UP say to 80hz, or 85hz - not down.

but as said, it wont completly cut off at 75 or 80hz, it will decrease in volume after that at the rate of (as you said) 12db per octave. in this case, at 150~160hz, it will be 12 decibles lower - so you will still be able to hear it. this is how music 'blends' together via different speakers.


so if i have it set at 0db, then the point that i choose for the crossover wont matter?? or will it just cut off frequencies higher than 75hz??

as stated above, it would filter out EVERYTHING above 0decibles - if its a LOW PASS FILTER.


thx for answering a noobs quesionsPatrick

no problem patrick. hopefully your questions will help many more to come.


furthermore i feel that some people might take my whole article about refrence levels a little askew - there are two kinds of 'decibles' that we look at. we look at spectrum response and speaker frequecny response. both are listed as the same graph. HZ on one side, and DB on the other (as seen in the above graphs). spectrum response however, is meant to tell us how loud the entire spectrum of sound is in our current setup. this is done by an insturment called a RTA, or Real Time Anaylazer. it analyzes EACH frequecny, and it will show a graph (seen in the white graphs above, peaky vs flat) the loudness of each frequecny. this is useful so we know if our high frequencies are overpowering our low frequencies, or vice versa. most people will never use an RTA, but that is beside the point. our second kind of reading is speaker frequecny response. frequency response is the physical response a speaker can produce at whatever loudness (db). the speaker company will send the speaker 1 watt, and put a microphone 1 meter away from the speaker, and play a sweep of the entire frequency band. it will record how loud each individual note is, and we will see a graph like this;

http://www.adireaudio.com/images/Koda8FR.gif

this is an adire koda 8" midbass speaker, recorded as i described above. notice how it can ONLY PLAY 22-2300hz down to about 50hz - this is the PHYSICAL LIMIT of the speaker... and this is why our stereo's need multiple speakers to play every note. BUT - each speaker CAN NOT play EVERY note in theie PHYSICAL SPECTRUM at the same volume. this is why there are peaks and valleys. this graph is a real-world application. it is the actual measurements of that actual speaker. and to be honest, it is quite a flat response between 1000hz, even though 1000hz is -7db from 100hz.

i cant really think of anything else to put in here. so please post any and all questions for us to awnser. :)

BastardKidKris
03-09-2005, 05:43 PM
excellent information

Savstyle
03-10-2005, 11:09 PM
:wowflash: thanks guys i never understood crossovers but now i get the jist of it. great read. leanred a **** load keep it comin guys!

req
03-10-2005, 11:18 PM
any more questions? please feel free to ask, because chances are somone else dosnt understand what you cant figure out eaither. i 'pieced' it together in my head from information i read.

please, squeak, jmac (if you are alive :( ), and those who i have not mentioned, correct anything that i have said that isnt on point :)

ANeonRider
03-10-2005, 11:30 PM
req, your spelling isn't perfect, but I see no errors there. This sticky needs a new name!

Redfield99
03-11-2005, 06:55 PM
I agree, Great Read you guys! This is exactly what I was looking for when searching the forums today.
I will continue the slope questions though...
Is there a "recomended" or "standar" slope setting for a particular box or sub?
Last night when reading some info from JL Audio, I understood that a sealed enclosure is "designed" to have a 12db slope and ported are designed for 16 and 24. Is this true?
I am sure this is common knowledge to most but an answers will be appreciated. The reason I ask is that I went from a pioneer p7300 to an alpine 9833 deck this week and it seems like my subs lost some volume. They sound much better, but do not get as loud. So now I am trying to find out why.. Thanks guys !!

ANeonRider
03-11-2005, 07:01 PM
Is there a "recomended" or "standar" slope setting for a particular box or sub?


Nope, it depends on the desired sound/application.


Last night when reading some info from JL Audio, I understood that a sealed enclosure is "designed" to have a 12db slope and ported are designed for 16 and 24. Is this true?
Sure is. It is called the roll-off of the enclosure.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v80/ANeonRider/roll-off.bmp

That is an example. The sealed box is in the purple, the ported in the white.


I am sure this is common knowledge to most but an answers will be appreciated. The reason I ask is that I went from a pioneer p7300 to an alpine 9833 deck this week and it seems like my subs lost some volume. They sound much better, but do not get as loud. So now I am trying to find out why.. Thanks guys !!

Did you re-set your gains on the amplifier? What is your sub level output at? Alpine decks do not put out 4V from their sub outputs until the sub output is at +15.

Redfield99
03-13-2005, 02:38 PM
Yes, I did reset my gain. My sub out is around +7 - +10 depending on the song. I did adjust the slope to 2 (12db) and it is a bit louder, but IMO doesn't sound as good as 3 or 4.
Is it "bad" to run the sub output at +15? Or doesn't it matter?
I will have to wait until I install my CDTs, I can pick them up at the post office tomorrow. Hopefully with more midbass than my factory it will sound better..
thanks for the input guys..

-still a n00b, but tryin'

ANeonRider
03-13-2005, 02:45 PM
No, it is not bad at all to set the sub output at +15, just reset the gain accordingly.

Redfield99
03-13-2005, 04:05 PM
The only problem I have with setting the sub out at +15 is what do you do when you get to those songs that are not recorded as well or don't have as much bass as you would like? That is kind of why I tried to keep it lower, so I had the luxury of turning it up if I needed to.

ANeonRider
03-13-2005, 04:11 PM
Sounds good... I like to set mine at +12 for that exact reason.

squeak9798
03-14-2005, 11:21 PM
http://img238.exs.cx/img238/7465/frequency1vc.gif

as you can see, the point where they 'dip' together is the crossover point (please correct me if im wrong). this point (by looking at the graph) is 80hz.


Just one thing I'd like to point out here........

The crossover point doesn't have to be where the two slopes intersect, it just so happened to be that way in this example. Technically, the crossover point is where the signal is down -3db; which, in this example happens to be at 80hz for both the lowpass and the highpass.

So, lets say we leave the lowpass for the subwoofer at 80hz, but set the highpass on the mid up to 200hz. Well, the lowpass slope would stay the same....but the highpass slope would shift so that the frequency 200hz would be at the -3db down point. The two slopes don't intersect at either of those points (80hz or 200hz), but that doesn't change the fact that this is where our two crossover points are located because this is where their signals are down by -3db.

Clear as mud again?

groov2
04-05-2005, 05:54 AM
Okay I have a question....

I have boston rally 6.5 components and they are 4ohm's. Now, both left and right to a 2 channel amp and run them at 2ohms? (kinda like a pair of svc 4ohm subs running in parallel to make it 2ohm's)

req
04-05-2005, 10:28 AM
Okay I have a question....

I have boston rally 6.5 components and they are 4ohm's. Now, both left and right to a 2 channel amp and run them at 2ohms? (kinda like a pair of svc 4ohm subs running in parallel to make it 2ohm's)


the reason we NEVER run components together in ANY kind of wiring (unless you really know what your doing) is because then you dont have a stereo anymore.

you get one giant speaker and all the effects of what channel (left\right\center\rear\front ect) are all combined - and that depth of music is thrown away.

if you want to get more power. find some 2ohm components (orionHCCA mids are 2ohm, image dynamics makes some 2ohm mids, so are the REXXX - but those are NOT component mids - i see them as more of a 3-way component setup rather than a 2 way - but thats IMO.

that is of course, you ARENT talking about having TWO sets of speakers on each "channel" of the car. for example, running two of those speakers together to 2 ohm, and installing them in the same location... like having two midbass speakers on the same door. otherwise DONT do it.


clear as mud

im sure you confused everyone - including myself. care to draw a picture? they seem to help quite a bit.

squeak9798
04-05-2005, 10:29 AM
Okay I have a question....

I have boston rally 6.5 components and they are 4ohm's. Now, both left and right to a 2 channel amp and run them at 2ohms? (kinda like a pair of svc 4ohm subs running in parallel to make it 2ohm's)


No. Since you would wire one "pair" (crossover, tweeter and mid) to each channel, each channel would be running at a 4ohm load. The only time the final impedence changes is when you are actually wiring the speakers together (either in series or in parallel). Since you aren't doing that with comp sets, each channel will simply "see" the impedence of the speakers connected directly to it.

squeak9798
04-05-2005, 10:31 AM
im sure you confused everyone - including myself. care to draw a picture? they seem to help quite a bit.

I **** at explaining stuff :blush: :crying:


Draw a picture of the xover slopes? LOL....my MSPaint skills are baaad. You're the photoshop queen (LMAO :p: ), see if you can take that graph, and just slide the yellow line over so that it intersects the "200hz" line at -6db :)

req
04-05-2005, 10:48 AM
ill try to elaborate on it later. working ***** :p:

//edit

i think i know what you were trying to explain. so ill get to work on that at like 12. (lunch)

groov2
04-05-2005, 03:57 PM
thanks for the help guys. i guess i will get a 4 channel amp for the comps

squeak9798
04-05-2005, 04:29 PM
You don't need a 4-channel, a 2-channel will work just fine for a single comp set.

iamamp3pimp
04-09-2005, 11:17 PM
Even if it is a 3way comp set?

ok.

Lets say i want the rexxx mids in the doors, and sense i already have them, the re re 6.5's & Tweets in the kicks?

if my amp puts out like 75x2@4 and 150x2@2, then the mids will get the proper 150 watts, and the rest will get the proper 75?

Or is that not what you are saying?....


Basically the Q is will my amp see a terrible stupid load, and send all the speakers the same power?

aniel
04-14-2005, 11:55 AM
Hi. I have a question for the Experts in here.
First I am new in here and just registered myself.
Second, I am from India and need your expert advice.

Alpine have just opened up their own retail store in New Delhi-India.

I have zeroed myself to buy Alpine cda-9827 for my vehicle.
I am only confused which speakers of alpine should i buy along with it.
I dont want to spend much and donot have much clue about component sets though I have read the sticky in here and have understood, however, my intrest is only for clean and crispy sound and not loudness.
Appreciate if you could provide me 2 options as to the set of speakers for rear i should buy.My vehicle already has come with factory pre fitted alpine speakers in the front with model spe-1002.
I was suggested SPS-170A in coaxial by the alpine shop and if I chose component something in my budget would be close to SCS-1756.
But i want your opinion.
tks

Exaran
04-19-2005, 07:38 PM
Even if it is a 3way comp set?

ok.

Lets say i want the rexxx mids in the doors, and sense i already have them, the re re 6.5's & Tweets in the kicks?

if my amp puts out like 75x2@4 and 150x2@2, then the mids will get the proper 150 watts, and the rest will get the proper 75?

Or is that not what you are saying?....


Basically the Q is will my amp see a terrible stupid load, and send all the speakers the same power?

For one, it's only a 3-way component "set" if all 3 speakers go to the same passive crossover network. In your example, the RE 6.5+tweets would be a component set, and the XXX mids would be additional speakers that you are trying to work in.

To make it all work, you'd either have to make your own passive crossovers to mix the comps with the XXX's (then each triple set would act as one speaker to the amp and become a component "set" more or less, and yes, it would put out about 75 to the mids+tweets and 150 to the XXX....assuming that the comps are 4 ohm and the XXX is 2 ohm) OR you could use active crossovers and run the RE comps on one amp and the XXXs on a second amp

squeak9798
04-20-2005, 10:32 AM
For one, it's only a 3-way component "set" if all 3 speakers go to the same passive crossover network. In your example, the RE 6.5+tweets would be a component set, and the XXX mids would be additional speakers that you are trying to work in.



Regardless, it's still a 3-way front stage ;)

req
04-20-2005, 10:59 AM
Even if it is a 3way comp set?

ok.

Lets say i want the rexxx mids in the doors, and sense i already have them, the re re 6.5's & Tweets in the kicks?

if my amp puts out like 75x2@4 and 150x2@2, then the mids will get the proper 150 watts, and the rest will get the proper 75?

Or is that not what you are saying?....


Basically the Q is will my amp see a terrible stupid load, and send all the speakers the same power?

if it were ME, id keep the RE mid\tweet comp set on its passive Xover the way it wants to be - on channel 1\2 for 75x2@4, and then channel 3\4 id run straight to an active BANDPASS Xover and then to the XXXmids in your doors - play with the xover until it blends with the mids\tweets and the substage, then you will have 75x2@4 and on the other channels, 150x2@2. and full controll over the midbass frequencies and the subbass frequencies (via low pass filter on your amp). the mid\tweet will be static (cuz of the passive Xover) but they were meant to play those frequencies... you might have to lowpass the signal INTO the passive Xover. a simple Fmod from harrison labs on cardomain\store can do this, or the active Xover might have 2 or 3 channels you can use instead to make it more controllable because Fmods will ONLY cut at a CERTAIN frequency.

if my kodas were 2ohm, thats what id be doing using a ST-1100 or whatever memphis 5 channel amp. and the horns on the other two channels - with the avalanche on the 5th channel with 1100w. what a beautiful amp :drool:

but nOOooo - adire just HAD to make them SVC4 :bawling:

hope that helps.

knight2006
04-24-2005, 01:50 AM
verryyyyyy newbie question i'm gonna ask right now... what is a baffle... how does it work... what would i use to make one... haha yea i am a newb... i did do a search but couldn't really find what i needed to know. and the stuff i found i got confused lol.

JimJ
04-24-2005, 02:19 AM
A baffle is what you mount speakers to...you build 'em with MDF :D

knight2006
04-24-2005, 02:53 PM
wow i truely feel stupid right about now lol

PV Audio
04-30-2005, 05:16 AM
There are speakers that play full range quite well, maybe you can't fit a set of Weems or Voight pipes in a vehicle, but they do exist and are in common usage :)
jordans :yumyum: :yumyum:

JimJ
04-30-2005, 02:44 PM
Jordans are good, if you have the amp power to run them with...compared to Tang Band or Fostex full rangers, they're inefficient as hell.

AznRevlAzn
05-21-2005, 07:35 AM
don't know if this is technically on topic, but what cross overs would be best to use when achieving good quality? or are all cross overs the same?

squeak9798
05-21-2005, 12:52 PM
don't know if this is technically on topic, but what cross overs would be best to use when achieving good quality? or are all cross overs the same?


Ohh.....crossovers are FAR from the same. Crossovers are honestly a pretty big topic to cover. There are many, many things to take into consideration, and many, many different crossover designs. Linkwitz Riley, Butterworth, Chebychev, Bessel, elliptical........And you have things to take into consideration like phase shifts, efficiency (higher slopes will give you greater efficiency), etc etc.......

Basically, for the best "sound quality", you would want to use the crossovers that optimize the speakers and their in-car performance. You do this by way of selecting the proper crossover type, points, slopes, and "accessories" such as zobel networks.

This is where the "active vs. passive" debate comes in. The passives that come with your pre-built components (like Boston Acoustics, Alpine, etc) are optimized for the speakers themselves; but they are not designed to optimize the speakers performance in your car/install. The crossover points and slopes that "optimize" the speakers themselves will not be the same crossover points and slopes that are optimal for your install. You may need to underlap or overlap crossover points, different slopes may be necessary, etc etc. This is where active comes into play. Active crossovers allow you to select what crossover points (and sometimes slopes) are used, so you can use the combination that works best in your car and your install. This can help you achieve better in-car response. Active crossovers also give you level control over both the mid and tweeter, whereas most passives only have volume controls on the tweeter.

However, active crossovers don't allow for things like zobel networks, tweeter protection, etc etc. You can build them yourself and add them in-line with the speaker though. Plus, the active crossover is another item in the signal chain, and the more things in the signal chain, the higher the chances of noise.


So, basically, there is no "best", as with anything. You just need to find what works best in your car and your install.

hellomota
06-02-2005, 11:41 AM
another question about crossovers....
If anybody reads this anymore
Would crossovers built in head unit work for simple setup. On my kenwood deck I have 5 presets of crossovers.

I was confused about 2 ways and three ways. So if I have a set rated at say 100rms will I need to connect crossovers to each speakers (tweetr,midbass,midrange) or will I need only connecting crossover to one output and then have postive and negative leads to amp from cross..
Thanks in advance.

squeak9798
06-02-2005, 11:46 AM
another question about crossovers....
If anybody reads this anymore
Would crossovers built in head unit work for simple setup. On my kenwood deck I have 5 presets of crossovers.

I believe you are talking about a built-in equalizer, not a built in crossover. And yes, for a simple setup, the HU's built in equalizer will do fine.


I was confused about 2 ways and three ways. So if I have a set rated at say 100rms will I need to connect crossovers to each speakers (tweetr,midbass,midrange) or will I need only connecting crossover to one output and then have postive and negative leads to amp from cross..
Thanks in advance.

If you use a passive crossover, you only need to run one input into the crossover, then connect all of the speakers to the outputs of the crossover.

Chowder Head
06-06-2005, 11:59 PM
I got a question for you guys.

I was thinking about getting a pair of 6.5 DLS Iridum speakers but my car has a stock tweeter in the a-piller of each door. Now what should I do to get the most sound quality? Buy some good components and then buy 2 aftermarket tweeters to replace the stockers?

Someone help a clueless person out, thanks!

squeak9798
06-07-2005, 12:43 AM
Buy some good components and then buy 2 aftermarket tweeters to replace the stockers?



No. The components will come with tweeters (and nice ones in that DLS Iridium setup). No need to add any more.

Chowder Head
06-08-2005, 11:06 PM
Midbass and midrange.....

What are they exactly? Bass in mid note?

req
06-09-2005, 01:12 AM
subbass (low notes), are usually considered 80hz frequencies and below. - deeep pipe organ, low piano notes, some electric\string bass, techno, the 'rumbly' deep kind of bass, ect.

midbass (middle notes on the low end) are usually considered 80~400hz frequencies - kickdrums, cello, electric\string bass, the 'punchy' kind of bass.

midrange (upper middle notes) are usually considered 400~5khz frequencies - human male voice, some lower end female voice, drums, guitar, most of the music is here

highs\treble\tweet (high high notes on the teeny weeny itsy bitsy strings /end strongbad) are usually considered 5kh~20hz and above - cymbols, guitar on the tiny little high strings, female voices, violin, and all that, the kind of sound that makes your ears hurt, aka - treble.

those are just rough numbers, and can be argued to be lower\higher\broader\whatever... im not POSATIVE on the midbass\midrange numbers, but im sure they are close to those numbers.

this chart is kinda cool;
http://www.olypen.com/music/images/freqmusic.gif

Chowder Head
06-09-2005, 01:20 AM
Thanks req! That helped out a lot.
:)


Another thing. In my 95 Mustang, 6X8's can fit in the front. Would I have fitment issues if I want to add a set of 6.5 component speakers or will they slide right in?

Acidburn
06-09-2005, 04:14 AM
Thanks req! That helped out a lot.
:)


Another thing. In my 95 Mustang, 6X8's can fit in the front. Would I have fitment issues if I want to add a set of 6.5 component speakers or will they slide right in?
with an adapter baffle you can fit a 6.5 in that 6x8 slot

AznRevlAzn
07-13-2005, 10:17 PM
with an adapter baffle you can fit a 6.5 in that 6x8 slot

jigsaw + measurements + wood = insta baffle :D

Justintoxicated
07-18-2005, 08:20 PM
Thanks req! That helped out a lot.
:)


Another thing. In my 95 Mustang, 6X8's can fit in the front. Would I have fitment issues if I want to add a set of 6.5 component speakers or will they slide right in?

I made some adapters for my iridiums in my most recent post on this forum. Check it out for some ideas, my adapters were for 6x9's to 6.5's so it should give you some ideas

The DLS tweeters are very nice!

Mine are installed in the dash, however I have some time alignmet stuff on my HU where I can select Dash, Pillars, Door, Kicks etc... that helps with the imaging.

Shocks
07-31-2005, 02:14 AM
Sup everyone I am a noob to car audio and have a quick quick question. I have some Focal 165 k Comps powered by a US amps Merlin md42 and love the SQ. I have them High Passed and would like a little bit more midbass. Should I use the passive x-over or the one on the amp? Also can anyone recommend a good x-over setting for the Focals?

Thanks guys

squeak9798
07-31-2005, 02:12 PM
Not quite sure I understand your question? The passive crossover will not affect the low frequency output (midbass) of the speakers since it doesn't contain a highpass filter. The only way to highpass them is with the crossover on the amp

omarmipi
09-14-2005, 01:02 PM
Great reading! I am glad that I started by reading this faq because I found exactly what I was looking for. My 1st question deals with crossovers and my 2nd question was pretty much answered already.

1.) I have a Boston rally R61 component set currently for my front stage and a 6.5" CDT EF comp set in the rear. They are both, currently, powered only by my head unit (Alpine 9827 - I am looking for a 100W x 4 amp). I just purchased a Autotek 2 ch active crossover and was wondering if it would provide any SQ benefit. Also would it be ok to run both the passive and active crossovers together?

2.) I just bought a pair of Boston R620 Midrage speakers that I was going to replace with my current Boston R61 Midrange speakers for more front stage sound. Do you think I this is a good idea or should I just replace the entire set? My CDTs dominate and I do not want to have to fade the output to the front. I would swap the sets but my CDTs cannot fit in the front door.

Thanks in advance

jimh
02-17-2006, 08:26 PM
Some things I don't see mentioned here that might be of use.

I know there is always the talk of getting the bass up front. BUT if you are mounting the mids/midbass in the stock door locations firing directly sidways you might be better off with a smaller driver if you have subs. A smaller driver images much better of axis than a larger one. For example a 5.5 will have a better soundstage in the example than a 6.5, etc.

The higher the order of a xover the more it will protect a driver with a steeper cutoff. The higher the order the more it will mask little nuances in the music too. So it is a big trade off.

Passive x-overs: Even orders (2nd, 4th...) keep phase and odd reverse phase (1st, 3rd...). So if you are designing your own make sure to reverse + & - speaker wires for odd units.

Digital elctronic xovers do not do this.

squeak9798
02-19-2006, 11:31 PM
Passive x-overs: Even orders (2nd, 4th...) keep phase and odd reverse phase (1st, 3rd...). So if you are designing your own make sure to reverse + & - speaker wires for odd units.


It's not always that simple to determine something like that. That theory assumes that all of the drivers are equidistant from your ear (which is hardly ever the case in car audio). Also, phase is not constant. For a first order lowpass crossover (for example), the driver's response is shifted 45 degrees at the xover frequency and only the xover frequency. Plus those slopes don't account for the driver's natural rolloff....you might have a 12db/oct electrical slope, but a 24db/oct acoustical slope because of the driver's natural rolloff.

NJack2AF
05-01-2006, 11:25 PM
Sry nm. Excellent thread btw though I learned a ton reading this!

PESteele
05-28-2006, 01:29 AM
can someone explain active crossovers in detail and how to use them/what they do. I didnt see it in here

PESteele
05-30-2006, 09:33 PM
anyone

FoxPro5
05-30-2006, 10:22 PM
anyone

Seriously...are you aware of the search fuction??? :crazy:

:search:

KaPPaBaLL
05-31-2006, 02:39 AM
learned a lot just by reading few paragraphs.. thanks a lot.

AcidicDreams
05-31-2006, 04:14 AM
http://www.passivecrossovers.com/#index

Going 'active'
A further improvement is the use of active crossovers. Unlike passive crossovers which are situated between the amplifier and the 'speaker drive-units, the active version is placed between the output of the preamplier and the input of the power amplifier.


Active set-up
Adding active crossovers is even better.
One of the major benefits of active crossovers is that the amplifier has more direct control over the 'speaker drive-unit and can therefore control it more accurately. Think of it like this. If you (the amplifier) sit in the back of your car giving directions to a chauffeur (the crossover), who is driving the car (the drive-unit), you may get on fine at slow speeds, relaying your instructions, but if you were in a race, it would be much better for you to have (direct) control of the car yourself. Click HERE for a fuller explanation of active crossovers.
Changing from passive to active control of your 'speakers will involve the following:

* A separation of the preamplifier and power amplifier stages. If you currently use an integrated amplifier you will need to know where the circuit for the preamplier joins the power amplifier section.
* One or more extra power amplifiers (you need one mono power amp channel per drive-unit ie one stereo power amplifier will drive two drive-units) These amplifiers need to have an identical specification as regards gain.
* An active filter (crossover) circuit. You can either build one from scratch, from a kit or buy one ready built.
* The removal (or disconnection) of the passive crossovers.
* The possible alteration of the cabinet size and port tuning.

I am a very big fan of active crossovers, having experienced the improvements they bring. Once you have an active crossover, it is also much easier to alter it to suit different 'speaker configurations than it is with a passive crossover.
On the negative side, an active system costs more than a passive set-up due to the cost of the extra amplification. However, as sound quality is our ultimate goal, I feel that this extra expense is well worth it. And remember that building your own amplification will keep the cost down. See the Build your own section for links to some of the good amplifier kits available.
There's only one thing better for 'speakers than an active crossover, and that is no crossover as I have discovered with my most recent 'speaker project which utilises some full-range drivers. (Click Here for details) However, even full-range 'speakers aren't perfect, often needing another unit to 'help' them cover the full frequency range.

AcidicDreams
05-31-2006, 04:14 AM
that was copy/pasted

jacka
07-16-2006, 02:09 AM
can you explain sensitivity of a component set? i know its not used to compare loudness, but i'm trying to understand what it is. also i don't get the 2.83 V/ 1m or the 1 W/ 1 M spec.

JimJ
07-16-2006, 02:14 AM
http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?TID=73962&PN=1

Good reading.

ndnbolla
08-04-2006, 11:16 AM
I have a question about the crossover connections.

I understand the tweeter attenuations (sp?) of 0db, -3b, and -6db which can be changed (usually inside the crossover) to you specific needs.

However I have a question regarding the terminals of the crossover, specifically the tweeters'. In my case, I have Rainbow SLC crossovers where the tweeter can be connected to a the - but then either a 0db + or a 3db +.

Which + terminal should be connected in what situations?

EDIT: NM... I guess the + terminal for the tweeter just adds another degree to it's attenuation where it depends on the proximity of where the mid is located.

lil azn 06
09-05-2006, 03:10 AM
If my Profi Kickbass are rated at 80 hz to 25khz, where would i set the crossover points at? (active)

Currently i configured my HU for 80 hz-2.5 khz for the mids then 2.5 khz for the tweets.

squeak9798
09-05-2006, 07:49 PM
If my Profi Kickbass are rated at 80 hz to 25khz, where would i set the crossover points at? (active)

Currently i configured my HU for 80 hz-2.5 khz for the mids then 2.5 khz for the tweets.

Too many factors to answer this over the internet.

Your best bet would be to start at the passive xover's frequencies and slopes, and then begin adjusting from there. Atleast then you'll have a target starting point to work from.

Would be a big help if you could find an RTA to to use when adjusting the xover point/slope aswell.

BlackMaxima
09-18-2006, 07:48 PM
Good info guys thank you.
very useful

Bossmaan
12-03-2006, 09:10 PM
I have a Question...i've done this setup recently, only for testing purposes..I'm just wondering if there's a potential for any harm...this setup is in a 2003 camry

I have the RF162C components..it comes with 2 sets of tweeters..i will be putting 1 pair in the door, and the other pair in the A-pillar soon enough...I have 3 1/2 inch speakers in the Top dash..I have a RF T4004 amp for the speakers..speakers and what not will be upgraded later to get the full potential of the amp..

what I have done now to only test is and this is where I need feedback, I left both the tweeter sets in the door, and I wired the 3 1/2 inch stock speakers to the 'speaker' jack of the crossover...they seem to sound nice but i'm not sure if this causes any harm to crossover or the whole set...I've tried wiring it to the Tweeter ports, along with the current tweeters..it sounds alright but the highs get ridiculous, so I changed that...so is there a potential for damage to the components or overloading my crossover...

my sub sub is set at 80hz (LP)... I'm wondering if i should set the crossover on the amp to all pass, low pass or High pass for the component set and the rear speakers..right now I've set my components to HP at 90hz, and rear speakers to AP 80...I've been busy so I havent had more than half an hour to spend on tuning, because I JUST put the amp in..so this is kind of half assed settings...

I will be disconnecting the 3 1/2 inch speakers like originally planned, and just have a set of tweeters in the A pillar, and tune everything properly...unless you guys suggest not to disconnect em..



sorry i'm kind of all over the place..i **** at explaining :(

krisfnbz
04-05-2007, 02:28 PM
I love speakers!

Angry Negro
05-09-2007, 03:55 PM
Anyone care to explain what it means to "phase" your speakers or "reverse phase" and how it is done? Benefits?

atownbudzz
08-12-2007, 07:08 PM
I have a question about Coaxial 6x9 speakers. I have 2 6x9 kicker ds650 and i have them hooked up to my amp. Everytime i push on the gas to my car a whistling nose comes out of the speakers. I dont no why and need to no how to fix it

Tehgregzor
02-09-2008, 04:31 AM
Sounds like you have a ground noise problem. Are your RCAs close to your power wire? Do you have a strong STRONG ground? Did you sand off all the paint, etc...

Get the RCA's away from the power wire. Check and tighten all connections. Check the ground.

XxSuperAdamxX
03-13-2008, 04:04 AM
How many Hz should I set my rear 6x9's in the back on the HU? I set the subs at 50hz which is the lowest and the fronts at 80hz.

caligirl2k
05-05-2008, 05:36 AM
Good info guys thank you.
very useful

x2

ItalynStylion
05-05-2008, 02:47 PM
I've read through this whole thread and didn't really see what I was hoping to find so I'll ask.


I've read a ton of stuff about placing tweeters on or off axis. What does this mean and what are the pros/cons of doing each. Anything offerer is appreciated.

mokedaddy
05-05-2008, 02:50 PM
That will depend completely on the driver. Some drivers sound great on axis but terrible off axis, some are the other way around. From my experience most car drivers seem to fall somewhere in between.

On axis means pointed directly at you. Off axis means not point directly at you. Also 30° off axis will sound different than 60° off axis so that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

ItalynStylion
05-05-2008, 02:52 PM
That will depend completely on the driver. Some drivers sound great on axis but terrible off axis, some are the other way around. From my experience most car drivers seem to fall somewhere in between.

That's to be expected. But what does on or off axis mean? I still haven't found an explanation for that.

mokedaddy
05-05-2008, 02:53 PM
I edited my post. :)

ItalynStylion
05-05-2008, 02:55 PM
I edited my post. :)

Thanks Nick

squeak9798
05-05-2008, 03:24 PM
I've read a ton of stuff about placing tweeters on or off axis. What does this mean and what are the pros/cons of doing each. Anything offerer is appreciated.

The axis refers to the aiming of the speakers in relation to the listening position. On axis is with the speakers aimed towards the listener, off axis is with the speakers aimed away from the listener. You'll also frequently see varying degrees of off axis aiming. Many frequency response graphs show 3 response measurements; 0* (On axis), 30* off axis, and 60* off axis. These of course describe how far off axis the speaker is aimed.

Pros & Cons? The graph below is the frequency response of the Seas Excel tweeter. Notice what happens to the response as you move from on axis (0*) to off axis (30* & 60*). Mind you that graph goes out to 40khz....all we really care about is 20khz and below. So one of the "cons" for off axis is definitely the effect off-axis listening has on frequency response. In the higher frequencies, off axis response is almost always going to deteriorate for just about any driver. And depending on how poor the off axis response is, it could result in having a relatively narrow "sweet spot" with the drivers aimed on axis making proper aiming even more crucial. The "pros" (for car audio) to off axis aiming could include better performance due to the interaction of the driver with the listening space and utilizing the off axis response to help create even output levels at multiple listening positions from both tweeters. One of the problems with car audio is that it's difficult to aim both drivers on axis to multiple listeners. One way to attempt to help cure this is by aiming both drivers about equally off axis to each listening position.


http://www.caraudio.com/gallery/1/4/7/3/6/response.JPG

mokedaddy
05-05-2008, 03:28 PM
Well said Squeak. :)

PaulD
05-07-2008, 01:15 AM
dang, this kinda stuff should be required reading. The best part is, it's designed to be read by the average joe shmo.

ItalynStylion
05-07-2008, 01:49 AM
Well said Squeak. :)

Agreed....thankyou

packersfan117
06-10-2008, 10:24 PM
ok, i'm an audio noob, and i have some really basic questions. i have a 1998 honda civic that i'm interested in putting some audio equip in. i'm not interested in competitions or over-the-top bass or anything like that, i just love music and want it to sound good in my ride. after browsing the forums it seems like 3-way component speakers are a good pick for a decent price, but after squeak's first entry, it makes me wonder: do i need some amplification? (saying i'm on a tight budget is the understatement of the century.) i've been looking at head units to replace the stocker in there (the pioneer dehp4000ub is lookin pretty good right now) and 6.5" 3-way pioneer speakers up front with 6x9 pioneer 3-ways out back. as i said before, i just want my music to sound good, so will a setup like that be good enough for that or should i get some amps?

Kicker1984
06-26-2008, 06:13 PM
Where should i set my midbass at to get better percussion?

My toms dont sound warm. They sound flat at times.

LiMarc
08-02-2008, 09:05 PM
Speaker Quality; I'v been digging throught these threads and have seen members say that SENSITIVITY, and FREQUECY RESPONCE are not important when choosing speakers.

What are the important specs to look at while comparing speakers for qulity

LiMarc
08-05-2008, 01:52 AM
bump

lorideslo
10-07-2008, 02:00 PM
what is external passive crossover?

Yourgrandma
11-15-2008, 06:57 PM
Say, I'd like to get a clarification about phasing. I assume you hook up the passenger side tweet to make up for the distance, but I'm not ceertain. Anyone want to tackle that one? It was asked before, so Im not the only one.

repres01
07-12-2009, 04:24 PM
I'm Not Sure How My Aftermarket Speakers Were Installed. I Want To Replace Them And I'm Not Sure If I Sure Go With Components Or Just Replace My Doors And Rears. I Recently Installed An Amp And The Sound Isn't That Different. What Should I Do To Make The System Mines?

Also Do Head Units Increase Volume?

Quicks
01-01-2010, 05:24 PM
extremely helpful....Great start for people who think they know and then they read this and realize they dont know shyt!

siloner
01-20-2010, 03:51 AM
extremely helpful....Great start for people who think they know and then they read this and realize they dont know shyt!

same thing i thought... i'm one of those people who google alot but this has saved me alot of time

rjs398
06-20-2010, 10:00 AM
I am a very big fan of active crossovers, having experienced the improvements they bring. Once you have an active crossover, it is also much easier to alter it to suit different 'speaker configurations than it is with a passive crossover.

__________________________________________________ _____________________
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bigthingspoppin
07-25-2010, 01:22 AM
will my system sound bad if i put a component set in the front with the tweeters on the dash and the a set of coaxials in the rear door? should i just pay the extra for two full component sets? or could i get two sets of coaxials and a separate set of tweeters?

i'm not so great at figuring out the details on what sounds great, any feedback would be awesome thanks
J-Rod

wheelman
01-29-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm looking at replacing my factory speakers in my 07 Avalanche. I pulled a back door speaker and saw that the Ohms listed on the speaker is 8 Ohms. can this be correct??? I'm not sure if i can find car speakers rated at 8 Ohms. I do not think there is an amp in my vehicle. This is a non Bose system.

I do not thtink I can put 4 Ohms speakers in as replacements. What are your thoughts?

Thanks

bubbagumper6
01-29-2011, 11:28 AM
I'm looking at replacing my factory speakers in my 07 Avalanche. I pulled a back door speaker and saw that the Ohms listed on the speaker is 8 Ohms. can this be correct??? I'm not sure if i can find car speakers rated at 8 Ohms. I do not think there is an amp in my vehicle. This is a non Bose system.

I do not thtink I can put 4 Ohms speakers in as replacements. What are your thoughts?

Thanks

You should make a new thread for this question and not reply to the ancient stickies :fyi:

wheelman
01-29-2011, 11:41 AM
You should make a new thread for this question and not reply to the ancient stickies :fyi:

Thanks, I will do that. Feel free to delete my original post.