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Elvenking
05-08-2014, 02:33 PM
I am kind of an old school Car Audio enthusiast from the 80's for sure. I got a new Alpine deck for my car and just couldn't stop there when my original CD player stopped working. Picked up a couple of amps and threw a nice set of comps along with a sub. It didn't sound brilliant when I picked it up, but thanks to the 9-band EQ on the Alpine head unit, I am able to sculpt the sound enough so that I can get it loud without hurting my ears. Always the holy grail of audio adjustment....sound quality.

Firstly, I notice that these days....a lot of the new CD's simply do not sound great at high volume. The lack of dynamic range created by brick-walling the levels just really comes out at high volume. You can hear the effects of compressing the bass kick with loud guitars and the whole thing just comes off as pretty messy next to say a pre mid 1990's source. (I was just playing some older Billy Idol Vital Idol remix CD in my car this morning that sounded so damned great by the way....but I digress) I like a lot of heavy metal and hard rock too, so I am up against a really big mess with those genres.

Anyway, so the EQ is kind of an essential piece of the system for me. I was able to take a frequency sweep and adjust down all the ones that sound shrill to the ear and that made a drastic overall improvement to begin with. However all CD's are not created equal for sure...and you still like to adjust on the run. Bringing me to my point of how much I miss a decent tactile EQ on a head unit. In fact, I once had a 9+ band tactile-slider EQ unit mounted below my head-unit back in the days where I could simply reach down and adjust up in a hot second. No more of that. Headunits now have digital EQ's that take no less than 20 clicks to get the adjusting done. Yeah...I am really **** about sound quality and need my hands on it.

The question is, how do I solve my problem? For an EQ geek like myself....how do I get the joy I need in tight control of SQ? I was thinking of getting the Kicker 30 Band EQ to adjust the car flat, and then just using the head unit for the small additional adjustments need for individual CD's with mix deficiencies...but still that is pretty convoluted. Looking for suggestions. Thanks.

trumpet
05-08-2014, 07:20 PM
Installing your component tweeters so they're in the upper forward area of your doors or in the sail panels can help to give you a bit easier time of correcting the sound to your liking with your EQ. There are other ways to help out with making your system sound better without getting into EQ, but EQ is essential to correct for errors in the sound and to reshape it to how we prefer it to sound for most common installations. If you're going all out with custom speaker locations and fabricated mounts then I imagine you wouldn't be asking this question.

A 30-band EQ would help, but your money would be better invested in a DSP that gives you separate control over each channel. This would also let you power each driver individually. JBL MS-8 takes a great deal of work and finishes it off automatically in about 10-15 minutes. I use MS-8 to help me get my vehicle sounding phenomenal. This is in addition to many hours of acoustic treatments, thoughtful speaker selection, positioning and aiming, and learning what to listen for.

whitedragon551
05-08-2014, 07:49 PM
Why not run something like the Audiocontrol Three.2 or CLarion EQS746 in a 1/2din spot in your dash?

calebkhill
05-08-2014, 09:16 PM
Time alignment and proper tuning with a dsp will help.
There are head units out there can get the job done without an external dsp.
80prs
Cz702

calebkhill
05-08-2014, 09:17 PM
Also make sure your speakers are wired in correct polarity

trumpet
05-08-2014, 11:37 PM
Doesn't Alpine use parametric EQ? If so, get some seat time with an RTA and learn how to use it more effectively. You can do quite a lot with a parametric EQ.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:50 AM
Installing your component tweeters so they're in the upper forward area of your doors or in the sail panels can help to give you a bit easier time of correcting the sound to your liking with your EQ. There are other ways to help out with making your system sound better without getting into EQ, but EQ is essential to correct for errors in the sound and to reshape it to how we prefer it to sound for most common installations. If you're going all out with custom speaker locations and fabricated mounts then I imagine you wouldn't be asking this question.

A 30-band EQ would help, but your money would be better invested in a DSP that gives you separate control over each channel. This would also let you power each driver individually. JBL MS-8 takes a great deal of work and finishes it off automatically in about 10-15 minutes. I use MS-8 to help me get my vehicle sounding phenomenal. This is in addition to many hours of acoustic treatments, thoughtful speaker selection, positioning and aiming, and learning what to listen for.

Most music doesn't give me much of a problem...but heavy metal easily gets shrill in the 1.2K, 2.6K and 4K ranges in my car so those bands are already taking serious cuts when I play something like new 'brick-walled levels' rock CD's or just CD's where the mixing and mastering isn't top quality. I am just a real control freak when it comes to my music. I have treated the doors of my Sentra with Dynamat and replaced the factory speakers with Morel Tempo 6's...bloody awesome comps. They are aptly powered by a JX360/X2. The Tweets are up in the pillars, but I might want to remove the factory covers that were there for the stock premium system...they don't seem as transparent as they should be. And for now a Polk 12" powered by a mono Kicker Amp. Looking to replace that with a Sundown Audio 12 soon. I get awesome sound out of the rig I have...it just takes a sit down with the EQ sometimes, and I would like that to be a bit more handy.

I am looking at the MS-8 now and yer giving me a new problem...now it looks like I might dream about this thing until end up with one....looks f'in way cool! I will look at that more...but it looks like the ticket for an SQ guy for sure.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:52 AM
Time alignment and proper tuning with a dsp will help.
There are head units out there can get the job done without an external dsp.
80prs
Cz702

Also make sure your speakers are wired in correct polarity



I certainly wouldn't have hit the advanced forum if I had a problem identifying mixed polarity on my speakers...that sounds like absolute crap. ;)

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:53 AM
Why not run something like the Audiocontrol Three.2 or CLarion EQS746 in a 1/2din spot in your dash?

I actually was looking at that little 7-band Clarion unit and it was nice looking because it would be reasonably low cost to try out. I just have to look around in my Sentra for a good mounting place. Maybe it could go where the old factory 5 disc changer is right now. Another good option...thanks.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:59 AM
Doesn't Alpine use parametric EQ? If so, get some seat time with an RTA and learn how to use it more effectively. You can do quite a lot with a parametric EQ.

I know...but I want to make adjustments on the fly quickly. No problem getting good sound, just need to bring ease to making the adjustments I need. Alpine has a 9-band parametric EQ built in....but until you navigate the menu to use this thing...you don't know what I mean. Lots of clicks and backing out. I have gotten fast...but it is still frustrating. I have been out there with an RTA and freq gen for a while for too geek style for sure. They even have a TuneIt app.....links to the phone and you can adjust it that way...they managed to make that one convoluted too. Very hard to keep switching f'in screens and siting there all day doing what it would take seconds with using a tactile interface. I need an all in one view adjustment system....or tactile adjustments. The App Keeps breaking too while they are trying to get it right and getting the phone out everytime is not exactly convenient. So I am just feeling around for options.

trumpet
05-09-2014, 01:43 AM
I only adjust the master volume and subwoofer level on my system. That's regardless of what I'm listening to. On-the-fly EQ adjustments become less needed when things really come together well.

hispls
05-09-2014, 02:06 AM
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think there's anything that you'll just throw up in the dash to do on-the-fly EQ adjustments that'll be worth using.

I'd think that the MS8 or similar processor would help you dial things in nicely, and I'm sure you'd get your money's worth of enjoyment out of them. I'd tend to agree with others that if you have things really set up right you should require no poking around regardless of source material.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 02:22 AM
I only adjust the master volume and subwoofer level on my system. That's regardless of what I'm listening to. On-the-fly EQ adjustments become less needed when things really come together well.

I am really happy for you.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 02:38 AM
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think there's anything that you'll just throw up in the dash to do on-the-fly EQ adjustments that'll be worth using.

I'd think that the MS8 or similar processor would help you dial things in nicely, and I'm sure you'd get your money's worth of enjoyment out of them. I'd tend to agree with others that if you have things really set up right you should require no poking around regardless of source material.

I hear what yer saying. I will read more up on that thing. It looks fantastic and I can't find a negative thing about it. With 31 bands and that much cut, you should be able to achieve anything. I don't think I am getting the level of cut I need in some frequencies in order to achieve higher volumes with SQ using the built in alpine 9-band

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 03:04 AM
Time alignment and proper tuning with a dsp will help.
There are head units out there can get the job done without an external dsp.
80prs
Cz702

That 80PRS looks sweet.

Jeffdachef
05-09-2014, 04:19 AM
I actually was looking at that little 7-band Clarion unit and it was nice looking because it would be reasonably low cost to try out. I just have to look around in my Sentra for a good mounting place. Maybe it could go where the old factory 5 disc changer is right now. Another good option...thanks.

Dont even bother with those EQs, that piece of junk just cuts and screws with the music quality, not really bringing much to the table in terms of precision sound control. Get a good head unit, makes 100X more difference in killing the shrills or whatever then that clarion EQ could have ever done for me. Snag an 80prs man.

yogegoy
05-09-2014, 07:14 AM
I like my Audison Bit One and want to try a Helix P or C DSP just to see what they have to play around with.

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 07:23 AM
Problem i see here is that you think an EQ is going to solve the problem when it's most likely other factors contributing.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:02 PM
Dont even bother with those EQs, that piece of junk just cuts and screws with the music quality, not really bringing much to the table in terms of precision sound control. Get a good head unit, makes 100X more difference in killing the shrills or whatever then that clarion EQ could have ever done for me. Snag an 80prs man.

Yeah, I am hearing ya. I really don't have a place to mount stuff like that for convenience anyway. As a couple are suggesting....the PRS80 would seem to be a better step up and not totally break the bank....plus I am sure I could reclaim money on the Alpine as well. The fact that you have Killswitch Engage as your avatar would seem to indicate that you have wrestled with the same kind of things.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:07 PM
Problem i see here is that you think an EQ is going to solve the problem when it's most likely other factors contributing.

Hopefully you can see how this statement doesn't help me at all. So you are just going to hold on to all the great information you have? Why not tell me the factors if you have em. I am not sure you are reading much of what I am typing. I get great sound the vast majority of stuff I play. I am not far off from maximizing the SQ I can get from the setup. But I am certainly not going to be able to build pods into the car and things like that if that is what you are suggesting. But you are suggesting nothing and simply guessing. So I am under the impression you are here to troll around.

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 12:14 PM
Hopefully you can see how this statement doesn't help me at all. So you are just going to hold on to all the great information you have? Why not tell me the factors if you have em. I am not sure you are reading much of what I am typing. I get great sound the vast majority of stuff I play. I am not far off from maximizing the SQ I can get from the setup. But I am certainly not going to be able to build pods into the car and things like that if that is what you are suggesting. But you are suggesting nothing and simply guessing. So I am under the impression you are here to troll around.

Ok.
Do you use time alignment?
Have you level matched?
Have you used band limited pink noise?
What are your crossover points and slopes?
You said the speakers are wired in phase, how did you go about that?
Where are your speakers installed and how are their mounting locations treated?
At what volume levels are you playing.
Is your entire system wired in stereo?

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 12:49 PM
Thank you immensely for the questions.

Do you use time alignment? I am trying to determine if my head unit has time alignment as of last night....just about to go out there now and see if it is tweakable with my deck. I feel this would be a great adjustment!

Have you level matched? Not sure what is meant by this. Please educate me. :) If you mean matching the levels of the amps, then yes...as good as possible. I didn't see any reason to adjust L/R levels due to the fact that will create a single listening point.

Have you used band limited pink noise? I have used both pink noise to get initially flat, and then a sine generator to kill exaggerated freqs.

What are your crossover points and slopes? I often change this depending on the amount of low frequency information in the recording. Some of the things I listen too are older and have crappy, CRAPPY low end. So I will turn the Xover way down to allow a little more of that to pass through the front speakers...but I usually set that around 80 or 120 and let a bit more of the bass pass through the sub for rock. For stuff with a lot of bottom end...I will take it closer to the 80-60Hz cutoff because I don't want higher freqs interfering with the purity of the lows in those cases.

You said the speakers are wired in phase, how did you go about that? Multimeter and polarity test on my phone app AudioTools with calibrated mic.

Where are your speakers installed and how are their mounting locations treated? Locations are treated with heavy Dynamat and mounted with 6.5 in lower foot area of door...factory location. Tweets are on the pillars by the windshield. Those might be able to get better mounting. They sound pretty good and dead there. Maybe not ideal...but like I said...not sure how to go about pods and that.

At what volume levels are you playing. As loud as I can get without hurting my ears. Which incidentally is fine and loud with most stuff. Like I said, The newly matered CD's post 2000 are another story. Very very compressed and crappy from the loudness wars.

Is your entire system wired in stereo? Comps are in stereo and the bass is mono.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 01:29 PM
I like my Audison Bit One and want to try a Helix P or C DSP just to see what they have to play around with.

These thing look like the next level of the game for sure. It's got my name written all over it...but I will have to wait before I can spend that kind of money yet. I am salivating though.

hispls
05-09-2014, 02:21 PM
I hear what yer saying. I will read more up on that thing. It looks fantastic and I can't find a negative thing about it. With 31 bands and that much cut, you should be able to achieve anything. I don't think I am getting the level of cut I need in some frequencies in order to achieve higher volumes with SQ using the built in alpine 9-band

Having that level of control will likely reveal the source of your issue. Needing excessive boost or cut at a given frequency is more likely an acoustic issue that can be solved through re-locating drivers or phase adjustment (assuming the issue is at or around crossover points). Going "active" crossover may help a lot as well.

It really sounds to me like you're using your 9-band as a Band-Aid to fix something that's some other problem.

Jeffdachef
05-09-2014, 02:25 PM
an inadequate electrical system can also cause the sound quality to deteriorate, especially in the highs when your amp has faint signs of clipping.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 02:49 PM
Having that level of control will likely reveal the source of your issue. Needing excessive boost or cut at a given frequency is more likely an acoustic issue that can be solved through re-locating drivers or phase adjustment (assuming the issue is at or around crossover points). Going "active" crossover may help a lot as well.

It really sounds to me like you're using your 9-band as a Band-Aid to fix something that's some other problem.

Not all acoustical issues inside cars can be solved....and I don't know of any other settings\treatments I can do. I cannot relocate drivers, it is not practical and I see no other locations available. If you have any ideas as to how I could do that, please let me know. The best I might be able to do is to get different angles at current positions...but it will take a bit to get to that. What measures do you think I should take to eliminate shrill at high volumes? I agree, it seems excessive to need that much cut at 1.2K, 2.6K and 4K...but while using a Sine generator...I can tell that is where it hurts....so I apply 4-7 DB cuts at those points...not really excessive as I can see it, but what else would cause the shrill with music that is saturating the entire bandwidth like slammed level CD's. Older ones with better dynamic headroom...they sound great. Don't get the idea that it sounds horrible in my car....it seems to need a little additional help getting louder. If there are additional treatments I can do...I would be willing to try. In the Sentra...the speakers do have a slight angled tilt to the listening positions....but the tweets could be better...I will try to adjust those first. Overall, I have dealt with worse interiors than the Sentra...it sounds pretty dead for the most part.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 02:50 PM
an inadequate electrical system can also cause the sound quality to deteriorate, especially in the highs when your amp has faint signs of clipping.

Yeah, you simply don't get the same power from your amps without solid power....looks like I have that at last measurement..

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 02:53 PM
If anyone has some great tuning techniques they would like to share around RTA's that would be welcome too. I think I mentioned that I use the FFT RTA to get things initially as close to flat as possible, then use a sine generator to slowly sweep from low to high looking for where my ears begin to reel from shrill...I knock those freqs down quite a bit cause they are perceived so much louder and harmful. Those freqs seemed to be at 315, 1.2K, 2.6K and 4K. I certainly could use a bit more time with the system to keep tweaking...it's still pretty new.

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 04:04 PM
If anyone has some great tuning techniques they would like to share around RTA's that would be welcome too. I think I mentioned that I use the FFT RTA to get things initially as close to flat as possible, then use a sine generator to slowly sweep from low to high looking for where my ears begin to reel from shrill...I knock those freqs down quite a bit cause they are perceived so much louder and harmful. Those freqs seemed to be at 315, 1.2K, 2.6K and 4K. I certainly could use a bit more time with the system to keep tweaking...it's still pretty new.

What's the crossover point between mid and tweeter

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 05:01 PM
What's the crossover point between mid and tweeter

I have a passive setup with the comps up front using the Morel Tempo 6 Xover Unit that came with them. Here is all the specs you'd ever want to know I believe. I elected to not attenuate the tweeter -3db and left it at zero.

Overall Specs:
http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tempo-2-way.pdf

Manual (Includes a rough Xover graph showing x over around 4K)
http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TEMPO_2-way_5_6.pdf

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 05:11 PM
I have a passive setup with the comps up front using the Morel Tempo 6 Xover Unit that came with them. Here is all the specs you'd ever want to know I believe. I elected to not attenuate the tweeter -3db and left it at zero.

Overall Specs:
http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Tempo-2-way.pdf

Manual (Includes a rough Xover graph showing x over around 4K)
http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TEMPO_2-way_5_6.pdf

I see.
What head unit and amps are the comps running off of. Maybe you can ditch the passive crossover? Separate level control and time alignment from mid and tweet would definitely help. As of now, the gain and time alignment are tied together between them.

Iunderstand you want both sides to have the same level, so that way "sounds good to everybody". But, doing it this way is limiting you from further SQ. Rock suffers the most because there is lots of dynamics, which time alignment and separate L/R level and EQ control is the biggest help to improve that

Even after tuning for one seat, the passenger side will still sound good.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 05:15 PM
You know, I was just out there again with my little phone-based RTA and calibrated mic adjusting a bit again...then I put some stuff on....blam...sounds really, really nice. Most would probably wonder what the hell it is I am complaining about for sure. However, I will always run into a CD that just gets a bit "honky" or "shrill" in certain areas. I might be messing with my own head pretty good too, I have a collection of like 700+ CD's from Miami Bass, to rock, to metal...the whole gamut. I admit...some stuff I put on there wouldn't sound good to anyone...but I try you know....it is nice to have the flexibility to try to make something that sounds like a$$ sound good. I simply cannot go from Bass 305 or Techmaster PEB to something like Heavy Metal a la Disturbed without making some adjustments. maybe I just have to start collecting presets for some of these off recordings.

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 05:18 PM
You know, I was just out there again with my little phone-based RTA and calibrated mic adjusting a bit again...then I put some stuff on....blam...sounds really, really nice. Most would probably wonder what the hell it is I am complaining about for sure. However, I will always run into a CD that just gets a bit "honky" or "shrill" in certain areas. I might be messing with my own head pretty good too, I have a collection of like 700+ CD's from Miami Bass, to rock, to metal...the whole gamut. I admit...some stuff I put on there wouldn't sound good to anyone...but I try you know....it is nice to have the flexibility to try to make something that sounds like a$$ sound good. I simply cannot go from Bass 305 or Techmaster PEB to something like Heavy Metal a la Disturbed without making some adjustments. maybe I just have to start collecting presets for some of these off recordings.

You shouldn't have to make adjustments if tuned properly

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 05:26 PM
I see.
What head unit and amps are the comps running off of. Maybe you can ditch the passive crossover? Separate level control and time alignment from mid and tweet would definitely help. As of now, the gain and time alignment are tied together between them.

Iunderstand you want both sides to have the same level, so that way "sounds good to everybody". But, doing it this way is limiting you from further SQ. Rock suffers the most because there is lots of dynamics, which time alignment and separate L/R level and EQ control is the biggest help to improve that

Even after tuning for one seat, the passenger side will still sound good.

I did discover that I do not have time correction with my head unit first of all...major bummer. I can see the setting in the TuneIt app that comes with the Alpine...but when it connects...it removes these settings...looks like I am a model too low for that or something. So it makes the PRS80 look even better.

An active setup does sound sweet but I smell money burning again...LOL. I know I will have to fork a little out to make some changes...I just want to get the best lead on the ones I should make. I have heard that you can get some great sound this way. I currently have a JL Audio JX360/x2 running the comps...so I can't pull it off with this amp alone. I'll have to get a different multichannel amp with more xover points or something that will allow this setup. Any recommendations?

In the back it's just a Kicker 300.1 Amp driving a Polk Audio DVC 12 crossed over at 160 with rock and metal, and I move it to about 80Hz with Drum and Bass stuff.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 05:31 PM
You shouldn't have to make adjustments if tuned properly

I believe that this is not entirely true....what if you like bass in your older heavy metal and you just got done playing Miami bass...I guarantee you, you will be adjusting your sub. Otherwise you will just do without hard hitting bass in your rock music. The average bass levels in the recordings are simply worlds apart and will show on a flat system, RTA and anything else you can find. Ridiculous amounts of low end on say Bass 305...and nearly any on something like Ratt - Out of the Cellar. My guess is that most are just not as picky as me. I understand that I have some stuff to learn here...but to say that I shouldn't have to adjust anything ever again once I have it set right sounds like more of a wish. I would certainly eagerly await the solution that would get me there though. So far...it doesn't seem to be the setup I have though.

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 05:32 PM
I did discover that I do not have time correction with my head unit first of all...major bummer. I can see the setting in the TuneIt app that comes with the Alpine...but when it connects...it removes these settings...looks like I am a model too low for that or something. So it makes the PRS80 look even better.

An active setup does sound sweet but I smell money burning again...LOL. I know I will have to fork a little out to make some changes...I just want to get the best lead on the ones I should make. I have heard that you can get some great sound this way. I currently have a JL Audio JX360/x2 running the comps...so I can't pull it off with this amp alone. I'll have to get a different multichannel amp with more xover points or something that will allow this setup. Any recommendations?

In the back it's just a Kicker 300.1 Amp driving a Polk Audio DVC 12 crossed over at 160 with rock and metal, and I move it to about 80Hz with Drum and Bass stuff.

Well, the 80prs will be all you need as far as processing goes.
It does everything.

Any decent amp fur the other drivers will work. The prs will handle everything else.

I ran the prs, great unit.

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 05:34 PM
You could try centering frequency bands with the fader, i don't know how effectivet your setup will at doing that though currently.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 05:52 PM
Well, the 80prs will be all you need as far as processing goes.
It does everything.

Any decent amp fur the other drivers will work. The prs will handle everything else.

I ran the prs, great unit.

Yeah....I am thinking of all the suggestions that have come across...I am liking the PRS80 and then trying to make some adjustments to tweeter angles and removing the factory 'grilles' that cover the morels. I notice when I remove them the tweets are a bit more present. Hide them with acoustically transparent cloth rather than the plastic grills with perforations. Active might have to wait a little longer...but like I said...I am really nit picking the thing now anyway shooting for as high of an SQ level as I can get. I know it sounds great a lot of the time cause it gets me giggling with joy when I hear it sounding good...just have to take care of the stragglers. Thanks for all of your time and suggestions and if you think of more....please do lay it on me. I can tell you have good chops in the car. :)

hispls
05-09-2014, 06:48 PM
Not all acoustical issues inside cars can be solved....and I don't know of any other settings\treatments I can do. I cannot relocate drivers, it is not practical and I see no other locations available. If you have any ideas as to how I could do that, please let me know. The best I might be able to do is to get different angles at current positions...but it will take a bit to get to that. What measures do you think I should take to eliminate shrill at high volumes? I agree, it seems excessive to need that much cut at 1.2K, 2.6K and 4K...but while using a Sine generator...I can tell that is where it hurts....so I apply 4-7 DB cuts at those points...not really excessive as I can see it, but what else would cause the shrill with music that is saturating the entire bandwidth like slammed level CD's. Older ones with better dynamic headroom...they sound great. Don't get the idea that it sounds horrible in my car....it seems to need a little additional help getting louder. If there are additional treatments I can do...I would be willing to try. In the Sentra...the speakers do have a slight angled tilt to the listening positions....but the tweets could be better...I will try to adjust those first. Overall, I have dealt with worse interiors than the Sentra...it sounds pretty dead for the most part.

I've seen some really crazy things done to try to correct the inherent terrible acoustic environment of a car. As you mentioned, slight adjustment of angle of the tweeters can be dramatic, adjusting crossover points can help (having a channel per driver and processing power is key here).

Another thing worth experimenting with is to reverse polarity on tweeters. Either side and both. I've seen more than one person reporting success taming some bad nodes with this method. When you're dealing with wavelengths of only a few inches and drivers separated by a couple feet phase becomes very problematic so running one or both tweeters out of phase may help.

You might check out the DIYMA forum. I don't know if they do any gatherings in SOCAL but we have a New England meetup occasionally and I learned a lot and heard some amazing sound stages by meeting up with guys who have put hours of testing and tweaking into the quest for perfection.

At the end of the day, you may well have just hit the wall with how good you'll be able to get things and need to rely on EQ, but I assure you the kind of stuff that's high quality and will give you the power that it seems like you're after isn't tune on the go type stuff.

hispls
05-09-2014, 06:51 PM
Yeah....I am thinking of all the suggestions that have come across...I am liking the PRS80 and then trying to make some adjustments to tweeter angles and removing the factory 'grilles' that cover the morels. I notice when I remove them the tweets are a bit more present. Hide them with acoustically transparent cloth rather than the plastic grills with perforations. Active might have to wait a little longer...but like I said...I am really nit picking the thing now anyway shooting for as high of an SQ level as I can get. I know it sounds great a lot of the time cause it gets me giggling with joy when I hear it sounding good...just have to take care of the stragglers. Thanks for all of your time and suggestions and if you think of more....please do lay it on me. I can tell you have good chops in the car. :)


80PRS is very nice, DEX-P99RS will make you poop in your pants. That's a really impressive processor.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 07:02 PM
I've seen some really crazy things done to try to correct the inherent terrible acoustic environment of a car. As you mentioned, slight adjustment of angle of the tweeters can be dramatic, adjusting crossover points can help (having a channel per driver and processing power is key here).

Another thing worth experimenting with is to reverse polarity on tweeters. Either side and both. I've seen more than one person reporting success taming some bad nodes with this method. When you're dealing with wavelengths of only a few inches and drivers separated by a couple feet phase becomes very problematic so running one or both tweeters out of phase may help.

You might check out the DIYMA forum. I don't know if they do any gatherings in SOCAL but we have a New England meetup occasionally and I learned a lot and heard some amazing sound stages by meeting up with guys who have put hours of testing and tweaking into the quest for perfection.

At the end of the day, you may well have just hit the wall with how good you'll be able to get things and need to rely on EQ, but I assure you the kind of stuff that's high quality and will give you the power that it seems like you're after isn't tune on the go type stuff.

Yes...I see what you mean about phasing of the tweets and wavelength. Makes a lot of sense. I can try lots with the tweets since they are easiest to relocate and angle. Good thoughts at least until I get that driver-per-channel setup.

Yeah...I can already see me breaking down and swapping out the head unit....I was wondering from the get go where I was going to go with the headunit. This Will be my third switch-out within the last month or so. LOL. It's worth it to me though and I can reclaim some money from the Alpine to go towards the 80PRS I am sure.

Ceratinly I wouldn't mind schmoozing with some other audioheads as well....must be a meetup here in San Diego somewhere. I'll look.

Also, I'll look at the DEX-P99RS too. ;)

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 07:12 PM
As far as the PRS80 goes....does anyone think I can do better than this cost-wise??/



New Pioneer DEH 80PRS Single DIN USB MP3 iPod Car Stereo Receiver w Bluetooth 884938151986 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PIONEER-DEH-80PRS-SINGLE-DIN-USB-MP3-IPOD-CAR-STEREO-RECEIVER-W-BLUETOOTH-/171246175796?pt=Car_Audio_In_Dash_Receivers&hash=item27df114634)

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 07:20 PM
80PRS is very nice, DEX-P99RS will make you poop in your pants. That's a really impressive processor.

Ahhh yes....at $1,199.00 that thing better do it all by itself. LOL. All kidding aside....very nice deck but far outside my effective value range. I'll own that one in my dreams and get the PRS80 in real life. But yes...I did poop my pants.

hispls
05-09-2014, 09:02 PM
Ahhh yes....at $1,199.00 that thing better do it all by itself. LOL. All kidding aside....very nice deck but far outside my effective value range. I'll own that one in my dreams and get the PRS80 in real life. But yes...I did poop my pants.

Well out of the toy budget of most folks, but I've seen them in action and they are top notch quality and pack a ton of processing power. Assuming somebody is ready to shell out 400$ on a HU and another 500+ in outboard processors it's not that far out of line price wise since it realistically replaces that much stuff that some folks would buy and greatly simplifies the signal chain. Less things in the chain = less potential for weak links.

The 80PRS is a very solid value and if you shop around online can be had for a reasonable price. Really I don't know of anything with more processing power than the 80 until you get into the 99, so it's about as good as you'll get without really breaking the bank.

If I buy a HU and use it for a couple months and sell it for a 60-80$ loss I chalk it up to the cost of "renting" or auditioning it. Can't be helped, and if you're buying good quality gear, shopping wisely, and don't beat things up you can usually get a fair resale value on equipment.

Elvenking
05-09-2014, 09:34 PM
Well out of the toy budget of most folks, but I've seen them in action and they are top notch quality and pack a ton of processing power. Assuming somebody is ready to shell out 400$ on a HU and another 500+ in outboard processors it's not that far out of line price wise since it realistically replaces that much stuff that some folks would buy and greatly simplifies the signal chain. Less things in the chain = less potential for weak links.

The 80PRS is a very solid value and if you shop around online can be had for a reasonable price. Really I don't know of anything with more processing power than the 80 until you get into the 99, so it's about as good as you'll get without really breaking the bank.

If I buy a HU and use it for a couple months and sell it for a 60-80$ loss I chalk it up to the cost of "renting" or auditioning it. Can't be helped, and if you're buying good quality gear, shopping wisely, and don't beat things up you can usually get a fair resale value on equipment.

Yeah...if I had the money I could easily justify the purchase....I will stick with the 80PRS for now. I see equipment exchange as 'rental' just like you do as well. Losing a little on the experience is all good. Thank for taking the time to give me some good tips!

calebkhill
05-09-2014, 10:11 PM
Well out of the toy budget of most folks, but I've seen them in action and they are top notch quality and pack a ton of processing power. Assuming somebody is ready to shell out 400$ on a HU and another 500+ in outboard processors it's not that far out of line price wise since it realistically replaces that much stuff that some folks would buy and greatly simplifies the signal chain. Less things in the chain = less potential for weak links.

The 80PRS is a very solid value and if you shop around online can be had for a reasonable price. Really I don't know of anything with more processing power than the 80 until you get into the 99, so it's about as good as you'll get without really breaking the bank.

If I buy a HU and use it for a couple months and sell it for a 60-80$ loss I chalk it up to the cost of "renting" or auditioning it. Can't be helped, and if you're buying good quality gear, shopping wisely, and don't beat things up you can usually get a fair resale value on equipment.
Well said


Yeah...if I had the money I could easily justify the purchase....I will stick with the 80PRS for now. I see equipment exchange as 'rental' just like you do as well. Losing a little on the experience is all good. Thank for taking the time to give me some good tips!

I agree

Elvenking
05-20-2014, 02:18 AM
So I have the DEH-80PRS on the way...and I will probably swap my two channel JL 360/2 to the sub and get a JL 360/4 for the comps and go fully active soon enough. With some more RTA time, I am able to get pretty good sound from the current setup...but still see how the 80PRS deck will serve me much better for TA and EQ.

On another note...while I can get things relatively flat using an RTA....there is an area on the graph between 510Hz and 1KHz where there is a rather large dip in the levels that is quite significant. Is there some cancellation going on maybe taking this frequency down somehow. The rest gets reasonably flat aside from that.

Oh yeah...I removed the factory perforated pillar grills from the front of the tweeters and got a much clearer sound from them. Just going to get some thin colored cloth to put in front of them so they blend with the interior...easy fix. I could easily knock adjustments off the tweets in the 8-16KHz range with that change.

Elvenking
05-23-2014, 11:46 AM
I installed that 80PRS last night. Haven't had time to do much other than level match and run the auto TA\EQ. Here is what I really love about it so far. The changes it makes to the reference curve are saved in setting separate from the regular 16 band EQ that you can adjust. I love that cause sometimes I want to adjust for sound...not tweak my reference curve. That is awesome. The second is...the 16 band EQ as opposed to the 9-band on my Alpine. It is firstly easier to adjust and not a menu nightmare. Oh how I dispised the claustrophobic navigation on the Alpine. The 80PRS is a simple left-right and bumping of graphic settings. So I think as far as a headunit EQ goes...I prefer the graphic as opposed to the Parametric....quicker targeting with this HU. Also...the time alignment does seem to solve the wave interference that was causing honking at certain freqs. The right comp set seemed a little low so I bumped the levels on it a lil...but it was overall a sweet reference to start with after the auto TA and EQ. If I didn't have this I probably would have gotten and outboard 31 band Kicker EQ and set that permanently and used the HU EQ for musical taste adjustments. Anyway...having fun with this thing. Gonna take it for a longer spin today.

May 4ch amp will show up very soon too and then...I will go fully active. I heard I should put a bass-blocker on the tweets though....I also want to see if there is anything else I should do before ditching the factory Xovers for the comps. I know I want to protect those tweets.