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View Full Version : Muffled Midrange/components at factory locations: Suggestions?



tjman84
12-27-2013, 09:09 AM
Hello! I've recently upgraded my Altima Coupe (2008). Every two weeks I've gotten something. Pioneer 80prs, then infinity kappa 509cs (5.25" and the 1" tweeters) and finally an inexpensive but decent amp for the components.

Because of how I bought the parts I've had two weeks to fiddle procedurally with each one. I know the infinities have a reputation for being overly bright and lacking midbass, however even past midbass frequencies into midrange it's got a "underwater" quality to it.

After some research, I'm guessing that due to my doors angle and grilles the speaker is facing directly at the carpet/console so the lower/vocals are beaming into an absorptive material. It's unclear if the grilles themselves are also contributing but a lot of people seem to think they would?

I purchased one pair of MDF rings I was planning to cut on an angle to change the mount on my midranges to face up towards the seats/my ears. I was also considering just taking a dremel to the factory grille and removing it, covering the opening with speaker cloth from the fabric store etc?

I'm wondering if there are any other suggestions? I have deadened the doors. GTMAT all over the inner door skin under the plastic panel, then a small amount on the outer skin (as much as i could maneuver without removing the inner skin because it's a real pain in the *** and easy to screw up the window motor function on my model. Even after that I also included some insulation material (mineral wool). It's like fiberglass insulation but is hydrophobic and resists the growth of mold etc also more fire retardant and my car certainly keeps warmer!

Sorry for the long post, but I always feel especially with asking for help that all details should be included! One last thing, I'm running the 80prs in network mode, so I've been able to simply mute the tweeters and adjust the crossover to the midranges to see how unmuffled I can make them. They are crossed over at about 3.5k on a mild slope and the higher frequencies come through, it's the 300-800 especially that appear quite muffled.

cablguy184
12-27-2013, 09:20 AM
Sounds to me like you have no headroom ...

tjman84
12-27-2013, 09:28 AM
Headroom? As in gain adjustments? I used the technique described on glasswolf's page. Used a multimeter and 1k tone. Took the RMS of the amp (63 watts at 2.35ohms, what the midranges measure) times 2.35, then took the square root of that to find the appropriate output voltage. Adjusted the amp to read that voltage when my HU is at 75% volume.

It seemed like the most scientific way to make sure the amp and speakers were protected. The amp is 60rms at 4ohms and 75 at 2, the speakers can deal with 90...

Is that "not right"?

cablguy184
12-27-2013, 09:32 AM
more amplifier power (clean power) with less gain = better amplifier headroom ...

cablguy184
12-27-2013, 09:37 AM
I'm running the 80prs in network mode, so I've been able to simply mute the tweeters and adjust the crossover to the midranges to see how unmuffled I can make them. They are crossed over at about 3.5k on a mild slope and the higher frequencies come through, it's the 300-800 especially that appear quite muffled.


Headroom? The amp is 60rms at 4ohms and 75 at 2, the speakers can deal with 90...

Are you running your components "active" or "passive" ???
These two sentences does not add up ... Running in network mode with a 2 channel amplifier ...

tjman84
12-27-2013, 09:56 AM
It's network mode and the amp is 4 channel. I never said two, unless you thought "75 at 2" but I was referring to 75 watts at 2ohms, still 4 channels)

No passive crossovers used. The components are bi-amped, one channel for tweets, one for mids...the gains are set differently using that equation and the tweeters are turned down because they are ear bleeding loud at even low volumes.

cablguy184
12-27-2013, 10:00 AM
Gotcha ... Sorry for the confusion, just trying to help

tjman84
12-27-2013, 10:04 AM
I'll try fiddling with the gain. I had a feeling it might to be 100% correct. I put a test tone wav on my SD card for the HU but for the life of me it wouldn't show up in the search. So I used the bluetooth connection and my droid phone to generate a tone, might be that difference in signal amp from one to the other. I'll try it again on the SD card now!

cablguy184
12-27-2013, 10:08 AM
I always tune by music (Eagles - Life in the Fastlane) rather than test tones ...
You have to tune your ears to get it correct ...

calebkhill
12-28-2013, 03:01 PM
Im just tryingg to understand what you mean by muddy sounding...

tjman84
12-29-2013, 10:58 AM
Im just tryingg to understand what you mean by muddy sounding...

The clarity of the midrange is not up to par. The tweeters are super clear, although usually any decent tweeters are. However the midrange, male vocals/etc lack the same detail and generally sound like I'm hearing something behind a wall. It's gotten better with amping the components seperately and EQing/ Time Alignment.

I can tell it's lacking, I have a lot of home hifi equipment from headphones to speakers and the vocals and lower midrange are wayyyy off. Probably the beaming/directional issues.

calebkhill
12-29-2013, 11:27 AM
The clarity of the midrange is not up to par. The tweeters are super clear, although usually any decent tweeters are. However the midrange, male vocals/etc lack the same detail and generally sound like I'm hearing something behind a wall. It's gotten better with amping the components seperately and EQing/ Time Alignment.

I can tell it's lacking, I have a lot of home hifi equipment from headphones to speakers and the vocals and lower midrange are wayyyy off. Probably the beaming/directional issues.

What amp?
What's the hpf for mids?
Your mids May be out of phase, reverse polarity on one mid.
You may need to deaden doors better.
What volume levels are we talking about?

tjman84
01-03-2014, 02:48 PM
Amp is a Kenwood 8405. Doors are deadened with roughly 10 sq feet each of butyl based deadener (Dynamat).

HPF I've been playing with. The infinity passive xover was set to 2.5k. It appeared a "little" clearer at higher than that, right now it's at 4 and Ive been screwing with the slopes.

Just took out the factory grills and also removed the passenger speaker, propped it on an angle straight to my ear. Obviously no bass response that way but vocals sounded better. That does little for the drivers side, the angle would have to be quite steep to focus on my left ear.

I'm still waiting for some MDF rings I ordered two weeks ago on amazon to cut on angle, just waiting for them to arrive.

Tweets are in the sail panels about 18" from the mid-ranges. I've messed with polarity, just seems to be grating in a different way?