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duck13z
11-14-2013, 10:53 PM
Ok guys,

I'm getting ready for a build, its not happening yet, we're collecting its parts but should be starting in the next few weeks. We're building a SQ focused system in my friend's 1972 datsun 510. It's a super old car (obviously) and I'm not trying to make it loud, just sound really good. I've already made a list of things and I'm not going to list all the little ends and connectors but I will share the fun stuff. I don't have any pictures yet of what we have because well its not that much, but I will be taking oodles of pics during the build.

What we have:
-Sundown SAX 100.4
-Sundown SAZ 1500D
-Digital Designs 3510 10"

To get:
-Pioneer DEH-80PRS
-Polk Audio mm5251
-Polk Audio mm691
-Kinetik HC1200
-Haven't decided on wiring, but will be using 0/2 wielding cable for the big runs
-Also talking to him about his alt, aiming for a 200 amp alt

the car is very little, and the trunk is split by the gas tank, so we're going to have to get a little creative and build it into the rear deck and squeeze out the most room we can. I'm sort of ripping an idea off another guy but I'm doing it a little different then he did.
Datsun 510 Stereo Set ups in the trunk ?????? - Body/Interior - Ratsun Forums (http://community.ratsun.net/topic/19708-datsun-510-stereo-set-ups-in-the-trunk/)
^ here is the idea I am mimicking. Except he used a 12" and we're using a 10", and he made a sealed box, I'm going to use a 4" precision port (i'm not sure if that's too wide, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to aero ports, but I heard they can sound better)
We will also be building an amp rack/case in the trunk to display the amps and keep his junk tucked away and still semi-usable.

I'm open to any suggestions, and will hopefully be will be acquiring more things and starting the assembly soon.

Side Show
11-15-2013, 01:50 AM
what sorta space does it have between the front and back seats or under the front seats. I don't like the idea of subs in the parcel tray, specially an older car that will rattle like crazy from everyware

UnderFire
11-15-2013, 02:16 AM
I'm very interested to see how the car holds up to the system, love 510's but probably wouldn't do any big sub-set-up in one.

duck13z
11-15-2013, 10:02 AM
what sorta space does it have between the front and back seats or under the front seats. I don't like the idea of subs in the parcel tray, specially an older car that will rattle like crazy from everyware

I'll have to take a second look at under the seats possibly but he wont want to take up leg room from his back seats (he has a 4dr), he'd rather do the back dash. To help the rattle we are going crazy with sound dampening. I've also had an assumption that if you make a bigger box, that it moves more air and hits softer the bigger you go? can someone give me some insight on that.
Ya we're not trying to go super big, thats why I suggested a 10, then he bought one of the biggest 10s out there so...i was like **** it, lets do it. Also what should the tuning be? I was thinking 32 hertz

bbeljefe
11-15-2013, 10:25 AM
For sound quality, I'd ditch the rear fill and concentrate on building the front stage up. I don't know too many people who go to concerts and stand with their back to the band, nor have I ever seen a high quality home hifi setup (for music) with speakers behind the listening position. Same with a vehicle. A well built, properly aligned front stage will create all the rear fill/reflection you need.

For the sub stage, you'll probably need two 4" ports for that 3510. Up to ~40inē of port area would be fine but below 25inē could be a problem and one 4" port is only 12.56inē. Tuning at 32 Hz would be nice for that sub in an SQ build.

As for larger v. smaller cabinets... generally speaking, larger will get you more low end extension with a less steep roll off but the trade off is less acoustical gain around tuning. Smaller boxes will net more acoustical gain around tuning but will roll of higher and steeper.

The amount of air you move is a function of xmax, port area and power. You can move a shite load of air in a tiny box so long as your sub is capable of the excursion, your port is correctly sized and your amp is capable of moving the sub efficiently.

duck13z
11-15-2013, 12:41 PM
For sound quality, I'd ditch the rear fill and concentrate on building the front stage up. I don't know too many people who go to concerts and stand with their back to the band, nor have I ever seen a high quality home hifi setup (for music) with speakers behind the listening position. Same with a vehicle. A well built, properly aligned front stage will create all the rear fill/reflection you need.

For the sub stage, you'll probably need two 4" ports for that 3510. Up to ~40inē of port area would be fine but below 25inē could be a problem and one 4" port is only 12.56inē. Tuning at 32 Hz would be nice for that sub in an SQ build.

As for larger v. smaller cabinets... generally speaking, larger will get you more low end extension with a less steep roll off but the trade off is less acoustical gain around tuning. Smaller boxes will net more acoustical gain around tuning but will roll of higher and steeper.

The amount of air you move is a function of xmax, port area and power. You can move a shite load of air in a tiny box so long as your sub is capable of the excursion, your port is correctly sized and your amp is capable of moving the sub efficiently.

when saying we should focus on the front stage, what are you saying we should change? the 5.25" and tweeters will be up front. are you suggesting we put the 6x9s up front and/or the sub?

ya but who goes to concerts for the sound quality? an argument can be made for me liking to be surrounded by my music

but none-the-less, i didnt want to try and extend on his front setup because i dont want to go cutting and hacking at his door without any experience of glassing to make it pretty after. next time I get a chance at looking for extra room to place the sub somewhere else, but I know there really isnt much. the beautiful thing about this car is its so simple, its a borderline metal can on wheels.

so how big you think I should make the box? the site recommendations are 1.5 but I was probably going to try and give it net 1.75 at least becuase we'll be either running the sub on 1500w or 800w (its rated at 1200 rms 2400 musik(can someone tell me what that means?) 4800 peak) but I want the sub to be able to hit the lows the best it can

thanks for the help

Jes 42
11-15-2013, 12:54 PM
...

ejschultz
11-15-2013, 01:10 PM
:needpics:

duck13z
11-15-2013, 03:12 PM
:needpics:

working on it, should have some in by the end of this weekend, I'll be basically taking pics of everyhting stock now and will continue collecting pieces because I want some opinions on the matter before we start doing permanent work to this 40 year car.
if anyone wants a specific spot photographed speak up or I will be just taking normal pics of the car and milestone locations

bbeljefe
11-15-2013, 11:56 PM
when saying we should focus on the front stage, what are you saying we should change? the 5.25" and tweeters will be up front. are you suggesting we put the 6x9s up front and/or the sub?

ya but who goes to concerts for the sound quality? an argument can be made for me liking to be surrounded by my music

but none-the-less, i didnt want to try and extend on his front setup because i dont want to go cutting and hacking at his door without any experience of glassing to make it pretty after. next time I get a chance at looking for extra room to place the sub somewhere else, but I know there really isnt much. the beautiful thing about this car is its so simple, its a borderline metal can on wheels.

so how big you think I should make the box? the site recommendations are 1.5 but I was probably going to try and give it net 1.75 at least becuase we'll be either running the sub on 1500w or 800w (its rated at 1200 rms 2400 musik(can someone tell me what that means?) 4800 peak) but I want the sub to be able to hit the lows the best it can

thanks for the help

You're right, it is a matter of preference. However, you asked for opinions and that's mine. My benchmark for SQ comes from hi end home audio and we just don't do surround in that industry unless it's for tv. That's also why I don't attend concerts... because you're correct that there is no sound quality there.

But anyway, I'd put the largest and best quality components I could in the front and I would run it active with processing, if I were building an SQ system in that (or any other) car.

Your box ideas sound okay but I would model the sub before I did any cutting.

Power ratings are thus:

1200 rms is on a tone.
2400 is on music.
4800 is a BS number.

duck13z
11-16-2013, 01:49 AM
You're right, it is a matter of preference. However, you asked for opinions and that's mine. My benchmark for SQ comes from hi end home audio and we just don't do surround in that industry unless it's for tv. That's also why I don't attend concerts... because you're correct that there is no sound quality there.

But anyway, I'd put the largest and best quality components I could in the front and I would run it active with processing, if I were building an SQ system in that (or any other) car.

Your box ideas sound okay but I would model the sub before I did any cutting.

Power ratings are thus:

1200 rms is on a tone.
2400 is on music.
4800 is a BS number.


what do you mean "active processing"? this is my first like major build so there's still plenty that I don't know.
But no, 5.25" are the biggest he wants to go because there's already holes for that size speaker, I just hope the mounting depth is okay. He is also thinking of just not putting in tweeters just to not cut anymore holes but I'll try different things.
Again this is his like baby and he wants to keep most of the plastic coverings and dashes uncut
What do you mean "model" the sub?
I don't get what you mean by the ratings, but I feel running the dd 10 @ 1500w rms daily will be okay?

bbeljefe
11-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Active means without passive crossovers between the mid bass drivers and tweeters. It requires separate amplifiers (or amplifier channels, as in a 4 channel) but allows for a lot more flexible tuning options. Processing is digital sound processing as in a sound processor. Some head units have built in DSP features and there are also external processors. Like active setups, they allow you more flexibility and accuracy in system setup and they can make a mediocre setup sound great when used properly.

I understand your friend's interest in keeping his car intact. So in that case I would recommend using coaxials, because getting a well balanced system won't be easy without them.

Modeling the sub just means plotting its performance on a software program like WinISD, BassBox Pro, et al. Those allow you to see how a particular driver will perform in a given alignment or volume and you can model the same sub in multiple alignments or volumes to get an idea of how those changes will affect its performance.

And yes, That driver will be fine at 1500 watts daily.

duck13z
11-16-2013, 04:21 PM
Active means without passive crossovers between the mid bass drivers and tweeters. It requires separate amplifiers (or amplifier channels, as in a 4 channel) but allows for a lot more flexible tuning options. Processing is digital sound processing as in a sound processor. Some head units have built in DSP features and there are also external processors. Like active setups, they allow you more flexibility and accuracy in system setup and they can make a mediocre setup sound great when used properly.

I understand your friend's interest in keeping his car intact. So in that case I would recommend using coaxials, because getting a well balanced system won't be easy without them.

Modeling the sub just means plotting its performance on a software program like WinISD, BassBox Pro, et al. Those allow you to see how a particular driver will perform in a given alignment or volume and you can model the same sub in multiple alignments or volumes to get an idea of how those changes will affect its performance.

And yes, That driver will be fine at 1500 watts daily.

ah okay i never knew what that was called. but for simplicity, i don't think we will go that high end
and i believe the 80PRS has that feature i think with it's 4th rca input. But i don't think hes that dedicated to sq, hes already concerned about budget. he just wants his system to sound really good and to blow away our Rockford Fosgate die hard fan of a friend.

hmm I've forgot about coaxials, but i just don't like them, i like components just to get that little more mid-bass i will keep them in mind, but I will also continue to push for tweeters

cool I'll check out those programs, I've been looking for some

he's with me now and has said hes more concerned about the clean look, then comes SQ, then comes loudness

Will have pictures up soon

duck13z
11-16-2013, 06:13 PM
And here are some pics of the car
and this is my first attempt at uploading pic to here...
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Couldn't stop cleaning his car for 2 seconds to take a picture..
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Idk why 2 pics were saved as attachments but oh well you can still see them the same.
more to come

duck13z
11-16-2013, 06:21 PM
so here is the back seats, and we plan on mounting the sub in that rear deck
I looked under the seats and other places and there really isn't anywhere else to put the sub without going super custom and he doesn't want to do that
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sorry for the quality of the pictures, they were only taken with my phone

Beau M
11-16-2013, 11:00 PM
Looks like you will be fighting with that gas tank for space.

bbeljefe
11-17-2013, 03:40 AM
Well now that we know his priorities, a lot of what I said was unnecessary, lol. But as far as components v. coaxials, the time alignment and DSP functions of the 80PRS will go a long way toward evening the score.

And wow... that's a sweet car. My first Nissan product was a '78 280Z and it has always been one of my favorite cars. So I get why he doesn't want to butcher it up.

duck13z
11-17-2013, 03:59 PM
Looks like you will be fighting with that gas tank for space.

and I will win!



Well now that we know his priorities, a lot of what I said was unnecessary, lol. But as far as components v. coaxials, the time alignment and DSP functions of the 80PRS will go a long way toward evening the score.

And wow... that's a sweet car. My first Nissan product was a '78 280Z and it has always been one of my favorite cars. So I get why he doesn't want to butcher it up.

No, it was good knowledge gain for me:) but ya I'll take your word and get the coaxials. any recommendations other than the Polk Audio mm521? i also wanted the components because they have a higher rms. But do you think it'd be better to tune the speakers or use the x'over that it comes with

also, I need some tips on tuning an amp, and please dont tell me "it's whatever sounds best to you" i hate that answer, I want to know what each thing does (gain, subsonic, freq for like what speakers, full, lp and hp) but also if anyone has/had a sundown sax100.4 is the x1 or x10 button is to get an even higher freq for my high pass?

duck13z
11-18-2013, 04:50 PM
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We found this as a potential spot to mount tweeters. In the center under the radio and a/c and those vents don't really do anything right there.
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