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benny215
10-27-2013, 10:07 PM
ok so I asked about the faital pro 6fe200 earlier and i ended up buying them should be at my door step come tuesday. the thing that i having trouble with is deciding on tweeters, I DO NOT wanna do hlcd due to money and space, but i also am not too sure on supertweeters, since im only running 1 mid per side that are 95 db. plus i would love to be able to just put the tweeters in the factory sail locations. two tweeters that ive recently been looking at are kicker ks25 rms150 with sensitivity of 94 would seem to keep up with the mids only 1 db difference. or the image dynamics xs28 rms 100 sensitivity of 93, not to far off. mids and highs will be ran off of ppi p900.4 i can get either of these tweeters for 100 brand new for the pair not really looking to spend any more than that. all in all i guess im asking if either of those tweeters would work in my case, if not and you can suggest something else that would be greatly appreciated. thanks

mlstrass
10-28-2013, 02:50 AM
PE and madisound have plenty of tweeters that will work. You don't have to run supertweeters with a PA mid.

I run Powerbass 4xl's which are a 6.5" PA mid and use Vifa titanium tweets and it sounds very good together. The Vifa's are not bright at all for a metal dome tweet...

Side Show
10-28-2013, 02:54 AM
have a listen to a few different makes/models/materials to get an idea of what you like the sound of.

benny215
10-28-2013, 11:15 AM
Mlstrass, I've looked at the vifa only concern is size. How about the season prestige or lpg tweeters from Madisound, any experience with those. What I'm looking for is something that won't require to much modifications on my car thanks.

bbeljefe
10-28-2013, 11:25 AM
If the factory locations are on axis you don't need much tweeter to make a good sound stage. Mine are and I'm running Neo Pro 8s with Soundstream TWS-3N tweeters, active. I have a very good front stage and the tweeter amp gain is almost off.

On the other hand, if the factory locations put the tweets off axis, it doesn't matter which tweets you use... your sound stage won't be right.

benny215
10-28-2013, 11:43 AM
The factory location is at the top corner or the door near a pillars aimed at the driver, may not be 100 percent on axis but pretty close. It's actually the one thing I do like about the factory system in my car is that the sound stage is pretty high. Car is lexus es300

benny215
10-28-2013, 11:46 AM
How do those soundstream tweeters sound, the specs look good especially for the price. N where do you have them crossed

mlstrass
10-29-2013, 02:22 AM
If the factory locations are on axis you don't need much tweeter to make a good sound stage. Mine are and I'm running Neo Pro 8s with Soundstream TWS-3N tweeters, active. I have a very good front stage and the tweeter amp gain is almost off.

On the other hand, if the factory locations put the tweets off axis, it doesn't matter which tweets you use... your sound stage won't be right.

Where did you come up with that info? Some tweeters play VERY well off axis and it can actually tame harshness vs firing right at the listener.

mlstrass
10-29-2013, 02:24 AM
Mlstrass, I've looked at the vifa only concern is size. How about the season prestige or lpg tweeters from Madisound, any experience with those. What I'm looking for is something that won't require to much modifications on my car thanks.

Didn't care for the prestige neo, got kind of spitty sounding at louder volumes.

These are what I'm running and you could surface mount them on the A pillars if necessary....

The Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/vifa-dq25sc16-04-1-titanium-dome-tweeter/)

benny215
10-29-2013, 09:13 AM
Thanks I was really looking at those seas neo too. As far as those vifa dq25s go how much power you have running to them and what mids are paired up with them.

bbeljefe
10-29-2013, 11:05 AM
Where did you come up with that info? Some tweeters play VERY well off axis and it can actually tame harshness vs firing right at the listener.

There are also white crows but those few of the many don't cause us to say crows are not black.

And I would argue that no tweeter does VERY well off axis. I would say those tweeters that must be placed off axis are too harsh and thus, aren't such good tweeters for a sound quality install. If all you're interested is sound pressure, then a metal tweet or some sort of super tweeter might be the order of the day but they aren't designed for sound quality in a vehicle.

As for where I got the notion that being on axis is ideal... it's common knowledge among audiophiles and has been for decades. Many people design their entire listening rooms around speaker placement for the sole purpose of having their drivers on axis with the listener and they do that not because they're eccentric but because it sounds better. Likewise, a properly designed car audio system has the tweeters (and as much of the rest of the front stage as possible) on axis with the listeners.

T3mpest
10-29-2013, 01:04 PM
There are also white crows but those few of the many don't cause us to say crows are not black.

And I would argue that no tweeter does VERY well off axis. I would say those tweeters that must be placed off axis are too harsh and thus, aren't such good tweeters for a sound quality install. If all you're interested is sound pressure, then a metal tweet or some sort of super tweeter might be the order of the day but they aren't designed for sound quality in a vehicle.

As for where I got the notion that being on axis is ideal... it's common knowledge among audiophiles and has been for decades. Many people design their entire listening rooms around speaker placement for the sole purpose of having their drivers on axis with the listener and they do that not because they're eccentric but because it sounds better. Likewise, a properly designed car audio system has the tweeters (and as much of the rest of the front stage as possible) on axis with the listeners.

I would argue due to the inherent amount of reflected sound in a vehicle vs the direct sound even when "on axis" there really is no such thing as "on axis" in a vehicle, at least as we'd apply it to large room or outdoor venue. I'd also say that's more true than your statement of "no tweeter does VERY well off axis" (see most horn designs) You can't apply what works in a listening room to a vehicle in every case or tweets in kickpanels, crossfired, etc wouldn't be useable arrangements and they often are. The ratio of reflected to direct sound no matter where you place your tweets means you really have to try it and see, so to say that you HAVE to point them on axis for SQ is a fallacy. Especially if your talking about "listeners" as in your post.. Listeners means 2 seats and that means you'll have to be "off axis" for someone. Polar response is very important in car installs for this very reason, along with the ratio of direct to reflected sound as I've mentioned several times lol.

bbeljefe
10-29-2013, 01:27 PM
I would argue due to the inherent amount of reflected sound in a vehicle vs the direct sound even when "on axis" there really is no such thing as "on axis" in a vehicle, at least as we'd apply it to large room or outdoor venue. I'd also say that's more true than your statement of "no tweeter does VERY well off axis" (see most horn designs) You can't apply what works in a listening room to a vehicle in every case or tweets in kickpanels, crossfired, etc wouldn't be useable arrangements and they often are. The ratio of reflected to direct sound no matter where you place your tweets means you really have to try it and see, so to say that you HAVE to point them on axis for SQ is a fallacy. Especially if your talking about "listeners" as in your post.. Listeners means 2 seats and that means you'll have to be "off axis" for someone. Polar response is very important in car installs for this very reason, along with the ratio of direct to reflected sound as I've mentioned several times lol.

There are also more than one listening positions in rooms and in outdoor venues. In case I've not mentioned it, there are no absolutes in audio and I've not said there are. However, there is on axis mounting and off axis mounting in a vehicle and to assert otherwise is a dubious claim at best. The laws of physics do not change just because you're sitting in a car. If you want to argue the efficacy of on axis mounting in a car then I'm fine with that debate but again, I won't be bothered to discuss this notion that it doesn't exist any more so than I would argue the length of unicorn horns.

And yes, the ratio of reflected v direct sound is important. But that isn't indicative of the notion that off axis mounting is desirable in most or, even, in a minority of installs.

T3mpest
10-29-2013, 01:51 PM
There are also more than one listening positions in rooms and in outdoor venues. In case I've not mentioned it, there are no absolutes in audio and I've not said there are. However, there is on axis mounting and off axis mounting in a vehicle and to assert otherwise is a dubious claim at best. The laws of physics do not change just because you're sitting in a car. If you want to argue the efficacy of on axis mounting in a car then I'm fine with that debate but again, I won't be bothered to discuss this notion that it doesn't exist any more so than I would argue the length of unicorn horns.

And yes, the ratio of reflected v direct sound is important. But that isn't indicative of the notion that off axis mounting is desirable in most or, even, in a minority of installs.

You just said NO tweeter does VERY well off axis, that's an absolute statement if I ever heard one. While there is on axis and off axis in terms of angles, the response in a car is very different than what you get in a home. The early reflections in a vehicle are the majority of the sound you hear, JBL actually did a study on it when building their MS-8. Taming the reflections and making their response as linear as possible should be the goal if you want what you hear to sound correctly. In a home that's basically always on axis, in a car it just doesn't always work. If placing a driver on axis also creates early reflections that have a response that doesn't match that of the driver you end up with bad polar response and a very small sweet spot as a result. IME on axis generally preferred, but not as often as you seem to be indicating. I'd say in 3/4 of my installs tweets end up within 30 degrees of on axis, but the angle of each tweet varies quite a bit and I never know until it's done.

To say that on axis is the only way to go is pretty dogmatic and misleading at best. Cars dont' break the laws of physics, but they do require us to look at other uses for the laws as the environments and the effects of the laws that govern them are different than in a larger room. Reflections dominate and that makes the way you have to look at things change. I've never seen anyone in a home put their midbasses at their foot level, however in a car it works very well. It's a trade-off from "ideal", but it's more ideal than what's ideal in a home, which would be near head level in most cases, certainly not floor mounted. In a car we don't have even PLD's and that becomes the bigger issue and we take advantage of the lack of beaming in the midbass region of a smaller driver. In a home, that's just not necessary to have to deal with. Same deal here, we have reflections so dealing with those is the BIGGER issue than on axis vs off axis mounting, they are both simply a means to an end. In a home to get to the correct result you place them on axis in a car you place drivers where the direct to reflected sound gives you the best polar response between the two while generally trying to keep even PLD's.

If you have a tweeter with the correct dispersion characteristics, (usually mounted to a waveguide) then off axis mounting could easily be ideal. A little beaming near the crossover point can even combat side bias for both seats at the same time, which is something that cannot be done electronically.

ciaonzo
10-29-2013, 02:02 PM
If the factory locations are on axis you don't need much tweeter to make a good sound stage. Mine are and I'm running Neo Pro 8s with Soundstream TWS-3N tweeters, active. I have a very good front stage and the tweeter amp gain is almost off.

On the other hand, if the factory locations put the tweets off axis, it doesn't matter which tweets you use... your sound stage won't be right.What's coming in underneath those Neo8's? Having any problems with dynamics concerning the nature of planar drivers?

bbeljefe
10-29-2013, 02:24 PM
You just said NO tweeter does VERY well off axis, that's an absolute statement if I ever heard one. While there is on axis and off axis in terms of angles, the response in a car is very different than what you get in a home. The early reflections in a vehicle are the majority of the sound you hear, JBL actually did a study on it when building their MS-8. Taming the reflections and making their response as linear as possible should be the goal if you want what you hear to sound correctly. In a home that's basically always on axis, in a car it just doesn't always work. If placing a driver on axis also creates early reflections that have a response that doesn't match that of the driver you end up with bad polar response and a very small sweet spot as a result. IME on axis generally preferred, but not as often as you seem to be indicating. I'd say in 3/4 of my installs tweets end up within 30 degrees of on axis, but the angle of each tweet varies quite a bit and I never know until it's done.

To say that on axis is the only way to go is pretty dogmatic and misleading at best. Cars dont' break the laws of physics, but they do require us to look at other uses for the laws as the environments and the effects of the laws that govern them are different than in a larger room. Reflections dominate and that makes the way you have to look at things change. I've never seen anyone in a home put their midbasses at their foot level, however in a car it works very well. It's a trade-off from "ideal", but it's more ideal than what's ideal in a home, which would be near head level in most cases, certainly not floor mounted. In a car we don't have even PLD's and that becomes the bigger issue and we take advantage of the lack of beaming in the midbass region of a smaller driver. In a home, that's just not necessary to have to deal with. Same deal here, we have reflections so dealing with those is the BIGGER issue than on axis vs off axis mounting, they are both simply a means to an end. In a home to get to the correct result you place them on axis in a car you place drivers where the direct to reflected sound gives you the best polar response between the two while generally trying to keep even PLD's.

If you have a tweeter with the correct dispersion characteristics, (usually mounted to a waveguide) then off axis mounting could easily be ideal. A little beaming near the crossover point can even combat side bias for both seats at the same time, which is something that cannot be done electronically.

That statement was in response to and thus, in the context of, the statement I was responding to. Ergo... if there is an absolute that says X drivers perform well off axis, then X falls closer to none than most.

In the end, I agree that off axis mounting can be helpful but the question here is where do I start? My answer is and always will be "on axis".

You might agree with Amar Bose and prefer to start 180 out but I don't. ;-)

bbeljefe
10-29-2013, 02:27 PM
What's coming in underneath those Neo8's? Having any problems with dynamics concerning the nature of planar drivers?

I'm not using planar drivers. And clearly, the drivers I am running aren't on the same plane so, why the word salad?

ciaonzo
10-29-2013, 03:11 PM
I'm not using planar drivers. And clearly, the drivers I am running aren't on the same plane so, why the word salad?lulz

Sorry about that, I read too quickly. I thought you were running B&G Neo8 planar midrange. Not the same at all!

thatguy12
10-29-2013, 03:15 PM
Didn't care for the prestige neo, got kind of spitty sounding at louder volumes.

These are what I'm running and you could surface mount them on the A pillars if necessary....

The Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/vifa-dq25sc16-04-1-titanium-dome-tweeter/)

that madisound comapny is real close to me. do they have good products. it be awesome to go check out their factory.

bbeljefe
10-29-2013, 07:01 PM
lulz

Sorry about that, I read too quickly. I thought you were running B&G Neo8 planar midrange. Not the same at all!

LOL. Gotcha. I was wondering though...

mlstrass
10-30-2013, 11:00 AM
that madisound comapny is real close to me. do they have good products. it be awesome to go check out their factory.

Yes they carry a lot of very good and decently priced drivers. Their prices have gone up a LOT in the past few years though...

thatguy12
10-30-2013, 11:08 AM
Yes they carry a lot of very good and decently priced drivers. Their prices have gone up a LOT in the past few years though...

yea, i can tell. just looked through majority of their products. they look nice but really expensive.