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View Full Version : Help choosing tweeter reflecting off front windshield: $5k total budget for amp+comp



Jetskier
09-14-2013, 12:03 PM
Looking for some help in choosing the right components for my front speaker set-up.
The problem is I have to use the stock placement for the tweeters, which is upward facing into the windshield. The mid bass is, of course, is in the lower front side of the door...where a 6.5 will fit.
The car is an 2013 Infinity QX56 SUV. I am not willing to put the tweets in any place other than the stock placement. So, it must be a 2-way.

My budget is around $5000, which DOES NOT include the Subwoofer, as I have already done that - JL 12W6 with custom enclosure using a JL HD 750/1 (probably should have chosen something else - but that's a different discussion)
I am considering the TRU Technology brand amp to run the components.

I am looking for input on how the tweeter sound will be affected reflecting off the windshield.
I'm also looking for brand suggestions, given that the tweeter will be reflecting off the windshield....and I don't like "bright" tweeters.

I will be using a Alpine PXA-h800 processor as my E.Q. (not part of budget).

Thanks for any help guys.

zako
09-15-2013, 12:14 AM
I'd consider a Hybrid Audio Legatia L6SE speaker set (7 inch woofers) with Legatia L1 Pro tweeter set running active. The woofers are oversized, so you probably need some custom work to installed. I have no idea how the tweeters turn out when firing into the windshield. You may want to ask on the buwaldahybrids forum. A JL Audio HD amp should probably be fine with any speakers. This should be well within the budget, plus some money left for the installers labor.

Silverado SS
09-15-2013, 12:26 AM
keep_hope_alive ; trumpet ;

mlstrass
09-15-2013, 04:12 AM
I'd consider auditioning speakers in person before dropping $5k based upon what others hear/say....

calebkhill
09-15-2013, 07:11 AM
^^That's true.
Listen to some first before spending that kind of money.
There are great sets out there nowhere near that budget though....

As far as windshield firing, it can be done and sound good. The fact that the dash locations are far forward will give good depth. And since they are located near the windshield, early reflections will be closer in time to the original sound waves (which can help with comb filtering).

Dash locations aren't ideal, but they can work and sound nice.
I think aluminum and silk dome alike could work in the dash.
The distance to the front of the dash along with an off axis response you may have some serious roll off, but a little strategic level control and crossover settings can solve that.

PHD - USA
09-15-2013, 08:17 AM
I'd like to toss PHD into the mix for high end brands. Hand made Italian speakers that have won numerous world championships in Europe. They are also the OEM speaker manufacturer for Bugatti, Ferrari, and Mercedes AMG.

trumpet
09-15-2013, 11:04 AM
Is the budget so high because you intend to have a high end shop do the labor of installation and tuning? Help us understand where this $5k is supposed to go.

keep_hope_alive
09-15-2013, 05:47 PM
i am very impressed with Hertz Mille, the off-axis response of the woofers is outstanding. Today I measured usable woofer response up to 6kHz (which is 2-3kHz higher than any other woofer i've measured. That's driver door mounted woofer measured at driver's head rest. this is important to consider because it determines what the maximum tweeter HPF can be. The Mille tweeter has a rear chamber with usable response down to 2000Hz. This gives me (or anyone else) 2kHz-6kHz of adjust-ability in the crossover points. I have found that with dash tweeters, you are sensitive to phase interference from a combination of direct and reflected sound. Ideally, you would set the tweeter crossover point higher than the fundamental interference frequency. With most woofers whose off-axis response is typical, you may not have the ability to use a higher crossover point.

you will want the ability to test tweeter mounting first - maybe flush with the stock grill instead of behind a stock grill. the other speaker brands listed are all good - and a personal audition is a good idea.

Jetskier
09-15-2013, 08:04 PM
I'd consider a Hybrid Audio Legatia L6SE speaker set (7 inch woofers) with Legatia L1 Pro tweeter set running active. The woofers are oversized, so you probably need some custom work to installed. I have no idea how the tweeters turn out when firing into the windshield. You may want to ask on the buwaldahybrids forum. A JL Audio HD amp should probably be fine with any speakers. This should be well within the budget, plus some money left for the installers labor.

Thank you for your input. I'm not opposed to Hybrid but the 7" woofer will not fit in stock location, as I don't want surface mount.
For me, finding the right installer is key, and Im generally finding that anywhere I inquire about products/install they naturally want to sell me what they carry. So, I almost have to decide on the components first, then find the shop that carries that/those products. :-(
E.g. Al and Ed's auto (Calif) sound pushes Focal...I don't want Focal, so I can't have them do the install.

trumpet
09-15-2013, 08:56 PM
Some installers/shops to check out:
Alex at European Car Stereo on Artesia Blvd.
John Tanaka at JT Audio and Accessories
Lance Doss at Newport Auto Sound

Out of those three I would meet with John first, but the others should be worth your time to meet as well. The best installers will have the experience to get your system sounding just how you want it. You have to be open minded to their suggestions, because there are a whole lot of good speakers out there but the way they're installed and tuned has the biggest effect on the outcome.

Jetskier
09-15-2013, 08:58 PM
I'd consider auditioning speakers in person before dropping $5k based upon what others hear/say....

Yes, of course. However with that said, I find that listening to a set-up in a shop does not even come close to what it's going to sound like in my car. And listening to a set-up in someone's car, which is a different car than my car, doesn't necessarily mean its going to sound like that in my car. ;-)



^^That's true.
Listen to some first before spending that kind of money.
There are great sets out there nowhere near that budget though....

As far as windshield firing, it can be done and sound good. The fact that the dash locations are far forward will give good depth. And since they are located near the windshield, early reflections will be closer in time to the original sound waves (which can help with comb filtering).

Dash locations aren't ideal, but they can work and sound nice.
I think aluminum and silk dome alike could work in the dash.
The distance to the front of the dash along with an off axis response you may have some serious roll off, but a little strategic level control and crossover settings can solve that.

Thank you for that. Yes, I will probably run active, using an Alpine h800 processor as well.
Also, The tweeter placement is very close to the windshield which I think is very good. As you said, "And since they are located near the windshield, early reflections will be closer in time to the original sound waves (which can help with comb filtering)."


I'd like to toss PHD into the mix for high end brands. Hand made Italian speakers that have won numerous world championships in Europe. They are also the OEM speaker manufacturer for Bugatti, Ferrari, and Mercedes AMG.

As I mentioned above, I'm going to need my installer to be familiar with "their" product, and I have not run into any shop who "carries" PHD. But much obliged for taking the time to post.


Is the budget so high because you intend to have a high end shop do the labor of installation and tuning? Help us understand where this $5k is supposed to go.

1. Front stage 2-way components....$1000-$2000. E.g. Dynaudio Esotar/Esotec
2. 4 ch amp....$750? - $1500... Tru Technology B4100-s $1500 or Jl HD 600/4 -$750
3. Sound deadening, connectors, Etc... + labor install = $1000 -$1500
4. Rear fill amp + 2 way components....$1000

It's seems like its $5000 before I even blink, I'm doubting I can even do it for that, as I've already been quoted $5600 for the above set-up. :-(


i am very impressed with Hertz Mille, the off-axis response of the woofers is outstanding. Today I measured usable woofer response up to 6kHz (which is 2-3kHz higher than any other woofer i've measured. That's driver door mounted woofer measured at driver's head rest. this is important to consider because it determines what the maximum tweeter HPF can be. The Mille tweeter has a rear chamber with usable response down to 2000Hz. This gives me (or anyone else) 2kHz-6kHz of adjust-ability in the crossover points. I have found that with dash tweeters, you are sensitive to phase interference from a combination of direct and reflected sound. Ideally, you would set the tweeter crossover point higher than the fundamental interference frequency. With most woofers whose off-axis response is typical, you may not have the ability to use a higher crossover point.

you will want the ability to test tweeter mounting first - maybe flush with the stock grill instead of behind a stock grill. the other speaker brands listed are all good - and a personal audition is a good idea.
Thanks for info. Informative. Yeah, my biggest challenge is that I really want the components behind all grills. :-( Makes things challenging, as I don't exactly know how much room I have in stock speaker positions.

I am mainly trying to find out which tweeters people have had success with in an up-firing application off the windshield. I have heard the Dyn's Esotec and Esotar tweets and mids, and really liked them, it just was not reflecting off the windshield.

trumpet
09-15-2013, 09:09 PM
I can't urge enough that you visit with a talented installer. Don't write off the value of listening to speakers, regardless of whether they're in a different vehicle or on a sound board. Yes, they will all sound different in your car, but the basic characteristics of each speaker don't change. A much wiser installer than I said it's largely the frequency response that changes once you put a speaker into a car, and you can do a lot to fix the frequency response with EQ.

Jetskier
09-15-2013, 09:39 PM
Aha...and that, my friend, is my biggest challenge. How do your REALLY know that the installer you pick is "talented"? I know that the "installer" that just did my Subwoofer set-up was NOT talented, but he sure "sounded" talented initially. So, he's crossed off the list. It was an Al and Ed's in Los angeles area...this is what they do EVERY DAY. :) The first "custom" box sounded awful, and told him so. And, to his credit, because I was unhappy, built another one and the second one was not any better than the first. Next....

Do you have any suggestions for finding a "talented" installer? I mean, I'm in Los Angeles for Christ's sake...there's gotta be one somewhere in this city. :)

av83
09-15-2013, 10:08 PM
Why can't the pillar be modified to not point them at the glass? Pointing at glass will result in the same effect, regardless of the drivers... With your budget, you could use top of the line gear and still have plenty to position them slightly different and still look completely stock...

keep_hope_alive
09-16-2013, 01:50 AM
you can judge the installer by their work. they should have a photo log and have projects on-going that you can see. i've been inside the install bay on several shops, simply by asking to talk to the installer and see an example of their work. the key is to be respectful and polite.

i agree that the brand of the tweeter will not be as useful as the woofer design as it relates to dash tweeters - for the reasons of crossover flexibility that i mentioned. ideally, your installer could make the system look stock while fabricating a new mount. dash-up tweeters can sound decent, but not amazing.

PHD - USA
09-16-2013, 08:20 AM
As I mentioned above, I'm going to need my installer to be familiar with "their" product, and I have not run into any shop who "carries" PHD. But much obliged for taking the time to post.

Mylows is the PHD dealer for california. He should be ale to help you out on auditioning the product and possibly installation

mclerico83
09-16-2013, 08:57 AM
mylows10 ; knows cali and can help you with install and equipment :)

mylows10
09-16-2013, 09:39 AM
I also carry Dyn audio if that's your preferance but be prepared to drop mire than you think Closer to $2300 for the escotar set These are prolly one of the best sound reproduction components on the market and if set up right it will be like having a concert in your car. The phd components are very nice as well. But I don't have the high end set that you might be looking for Send me a pm and I can give you some prices on these sets as well as some cdt Es golds. Dls or a set of the hertz Mille

rome58
09-18-2013, 05:04 PM
What kind a vehicle are you getting an install in? Most likely you could eliminate rear fill to cut down on cost especially with that high of quality front setup, and you running a sub rear fill in a car is really not necessary IMO.

calebkhill
09-18-2013, 06:31 PM
How about, going to a competition and demoing some sq cars....
Like the sound, ask what they are running

Jetskier
09-28-2013, 01:41 PM
What kind a vehicle are you getting an install in? Most likely you could eliminate rear fill to cut down on cost especially with that high of quality front setup, and you running a sub rear fill in a car is really not necessary IMO.

infinity Qx56 is the SUV. I understand what you mean about reducing cost by eliminating rear fill, but this is an SUV. I think it needs to be there. Im not going "expensive on rear fill any way...$1000 at most. However, I'm not sure what you mean by saying a "sub rear fill in a car is really not necessary? Where would the SUB go? Perhaps you were assuming this was going in a car, and not an SUV?

Jetskier
09-28-2013, 01:43 PM
How about, going to a competition and demoing some sq cars....
Like the sound, ask what they are running
Yes, I think that is a great idea. Forgive me for my ignorance, but how often do they have these competitions and how do you find out about them. I would love to check these out.

hispls
09-28-2013, 03:44 PM
Why not take 500$ of that budget and go to a big SQ event/competition somewhere and get a look/listen to see what people are doing. It's really a small investment given your budget to really see what works and what does not and get some ideas of what sort of equipment can be made to sound good.

Also if I were throwing that kind of dough at a SQ install I would NOT be without the Pioneer dex-p99rs for head unit. it is an incredibly powerful tool to give you all the processing you'll ever want.

There's dozens of good quality components and IMO proper location, deadening treatment, and testing and tuning with some good processing will get you what you want with brand being a secondary concern. I'm not a huge JL fan, but their stuff is solid (if overpriced) and you might as well get their multichannel amp to match cosmetically with the one you already have.

calebkhill
09-28-2013, 04:14 PM
Why would he need 500$ to go to a competition? Dspectating is free.

Look in the events category here, and over at diyma
Also at MobileAudioForum (http://www.mobileaudioforum.com)