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View Full Version : Explain digital sound processors to me? JBL MS-8, Rockford 3sixty.3, audison bit one



jockhater2
07-30-2013, 07:31 PM
What is the point of them?

To add more channels to run more amps?
Is it so you can run your set up active?

I honestly know nothing about them. ciaonzo ; keep_hope_alive ; TaylorFade ; mylows10 ;

trumpet
07-30-2013, 07:57 PM
It's mainly for active systems with the benefit of a lot more tuning power. The processors you listed can take as few as 2 channels of input and generate up to 8 channels. I'm on my phone so I'll leave it at this for now.

jockhater2
07-30-2013, 08:02 PM
It's mainly for active systems with the benefit of a lot more tuning power. The processors you listed can take as few as 2 channels of input and generate up to 8 channels. I'm on my phone so I'll leave it at this for now.

Feel free to write more when you have free time and are on a computer.

Do you get degrade the signal at all by running a 2channel HU into one and splitting it into 8?

clickclickw00t
07-30-2013, 08:21 PM
Feel free to write more when you have free time and are on a computer.

Do you get degrade the signal at all by running a 2channel HU into one and splitting it into 8?

It turns the analog sound to digital, then processes it, then converts it back to analog. Basically, the only "loss" you have is the minor loss of fidelity going ADC->unit->DAC. But no, you will not necessary get "signal loss". And the minor loss in fidelity is way more than fixed with the awesome tuning abilities.

trumpet
07-30-2013, 09:38 PM
Aside from the MS-8, all other DSPs at the same price level require someone at the helm who knows how to tune, as well as an RTA setup. When you have many, many equalizer bands there is literally no productive use of your time to attempt to tune only by ear. While the MS-8 is not perfect, and the installation manual is missing critical tips, I can have my system tuned from scratch in less than 20 minutes. I do this every time I have done a memory wipe on my MS-8, which has been twice so far in the last 7 months that I recall.

At an Audison dealer with a Bit Tune you can pay them to tune your system more or less automatically. I don't know any Audison dealers near me to be able to see this in person, but you can see it on YouTube on the Amplified show by Soundman in California. You're chained to the dealer if you ever need to retune the system with the Bit Tune.

The point of possibly quadrupling the complexity of a system with a DSP and the options they can open is because the results can be mind blowing. It's not going to make a ****** install sound competition ready, and it can't make crap speakers sound like high end speakers. It can make good speakers sound amazing, and along with an install that covers a lot of common issues you start to forget you're in a car at times.

TaylorFade
07-30-2013, 11:05 PM
Without processor...

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/mono_zpscd974448.jpg (http://s848.photobucket.com/user/taylorfade/media/mono_zpscd974448.jpg.html)

With processor...

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/orchestra_zps843966d2.jpg (http://s848.photobucket.com/user/taylorfade/media/orchestra_zps843966d2.jpg.html)

chefzane
07-30-2013, 11:08 PM
Without processor...

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/mono_zpscd974448.jpg (http://s848.photobucket.com/user/taylorfade/media/mono_zpscd974448.jpg.html)

With processor...

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/orchestra_zps843966d2.jpg (http://s848.photobucket.com/user/taylorfade/media/orchestra_zps843966d2.jpg.html)

This x2, was a world of diff for me

TaylorFade
07-30-2013, 11:21 PM
You might think I'm kidding, but it's not far from the truth.

I think one of the greatest testaments to the efficacy of processors is what JBL accomplished right when the MS-8 came out. They took a bone stock BMW system, added some amps and an MS-8 and recorded the highest SQ score ever (at the time). And BMW's aren't known for the greatest stock speakers in the world. I know because I own one.

I actually have an MS-8 now. And a BMW. I got the MS-8 first so it was sitting until I decided on amps and new drivers. Well... I got sick of it collecting dust while I made up my mind and I installed it. ALL I did was replace the factory amp with the MS-8. 20 minutes later and I'm telling you... it's like night and day. Literally.

Now, this isn't me talking up the MS-8 specifically. Just processing in general. Lots of EQ is nice. And time alignment is nice. Put both together and you really have something special.

All of this time and money that we put into our car stereos... I can't believe more people don't use some sort of processing. And the prices are getting lower and lower. The Zapco unit is like $450 brand new. And heck, you can get the MiniDSP for 100 bucks.

The MS-8 takes some of the fun out of it though because it does it ALL for you. Like... everything. Sometimes, and in my case (this time), that's a good thing. But it's fun to try different crossover points or slopes. Add a little delay here. Cut a little there. Attenuate something -1db. Blah blah blah. You can fiddle until the cows come home chasing the dragon. But don't let that deter anyone from trying it. It's a great ride getting everything dialed in.

keep_hope_alive
07-31-2013, 12:01 AM
we can chat sometime if you wanna discuss it more.

chefzane
07-31-2013, 12:35 AM
Waiting on keep_hope_alive to setup and review the mini-dsp so I know if its close to what I want, don't wanna spend the money on the ms-8 its silly when a laptop dedicated to the mini and a mic setup for the RTA its still cheaper than a new ms-8, and I like to play with my setup

jockhater2
07-31-2013, 10:05 AM
How does the P99 head unit compare to having a 80PRS with a MS-8?

trumpet
07-31-2013, 11:11 AM
Waiting on keep_hope_alive to setup and review the mini-dsp so I know if its close to what I want, don't wanna spend the money on the ms-8 its silly when a laptop dedicated to the mini and a mic setup for the RTA its still cheaper than a new ms-8, and I like to play with my setup

Learning to tune manually will make you better appreciate what MS-8 can do. I think it's silly to say a Mini-DSP with a laptop RTA setup can be superior when you haven't spent hours and hours in the car trying to figure out WTF to do as your ears get tired and your car still doesn't sound how you want it to.

trumpet
07-31-2013, 11:12 AM
Waiting on keep_hope_alive to setup and review the mini-dsp so I know if its close to what I want, don't wanna spend the money on the ms-8 its silly when a laptop dedicated to the mini and a mic setup for the RTA its still cheaper than a new ms-8, and I like to play with my setup

Learning to tune manually will make you better appreciate what MS-8 can do. I think it's silly to say a Mini-DSP with a laptop RTA setup can be superior when you haven't spent hours and hours in the car trying to figure out WTF to do as your ears get tired and your car still doesn't sound how you want it to.

OldManBass
07-31-2013, 11:40 AM
Trumpet, can you have multiple settings on the MS-8? Say an "SQ" setting, and a "Full Bass" setting?

chefzane
07-31-2013, 01:26 PM
Double post

chefzane
07-31-2013, 01:30 PM
Learning to tune manually will make you better appreciate what MS-8 can do. I think it's silly to say a Mini-DSP with a laptop RTA setup can be superior when you haven't spent hours and hours in the car trying to figure out WTF to do as your ears get tired and your car still doesn't sound how you want it to.

I only say superior based on u can't manually adjust some parameters on a ms-8 and I want to be able to play with everything so I CAN gain a better knowledge and understanding of my system as a whole, and I have spent hours with what I currently have to learn every aspect that my limited understanding of sound theory and physics allows me too so its not like I am talking out my azz ask those who have an ms-8 they love them but the only downside ever noticed about it is that it isn't fully adjustable where as the right model mini can do all the same things and more, I am not hating on it if I could afford one I would but for the price new I can have a better more integrated product in my opinion, I have read a bunch of review etc on both and just wanted to know KHA's opinion since I value his input immensely before I pull the trigger on it

NoLoud4U
07-31-2013, 02:06 PM
I have been trying to justify adding the Alpine H800 but I cant. My amps run 3 way active, the 117 has Burr-Brown which I love, TA, and enough EQ to get as flat as I would ever need.

trumpet
07-31-2013, 02:17 PM
I only say superior based on u can't manually adjust some parameters on a ms-8 and I want to be able to play with everything so I CAN gain a better knowledge and understanding of my system as a whole, and I have spent hours with what I currently have to learn every aspect that my limited understanding of sound theory and physics allows me too so its not like I am talking out my azz ask those who have an ms-8 they love them but the only downside ever noticed about it is that it isn't fully adjustable where as the right model mini can do all the same things and more, I am not hating on it if I could afford one I would but for the price new I can have a better more integrated product in my opinion, I have read a bunch of review etc on both and just wanted to know KHA's opinion since I value his input immensely before I pull the trigger on it

What I'm about to say is not meant to be argumentative. Anyone who says a different DSP can do all the same things as an MS-8 is wrong. It completely overlooks the power of the signal steering from Logic 7. It's the best way to get great sound for multiple seats without going to great lengths to equalize speaker path lengths. It does require a center channel, and for a vehicle that doesn't offer that originally that can be a major hurdle. It also overlooks the resolution of the equalization MS-8 does vs the typical 1/3 octave graphic EQ of many DSPs. I'm not certain of this but I think MS-8 works at 1/6 octave resolution. Trying to match this with manual tuning is exponentially more difficult than 1/3 octave tuning. It's not just about looking at an RTA graph on a screen, it's also knowing what to do that that information and knowing how to handle the mic.

Other DSPs can do "high resolution" tuning, and the PS-8 comes to mind as the most powerful 12V DSP out today. However, you have to be a world class tuner to be able to fully utilize the PS-8 on Expert mode.

I respect anyone who takes on the challenge of learning to tune with an RTA. It's a real handful and most DIYers won't do it.

chefzane
07-31-2013, 02:32 PM
I have been trying to justify adding the Alpine H800 but I cant. My amps run 3 way active, the 117 has Burr-Brown which I love, TA, and enough EQ to get as flat as I would ever need.

Would love to go all alpine but dont have the cash

chefzane
07-31-2013, 02:32 PM
My tablet is a double post in beotch today

And @trumpet no argument here on the logic 7 from what I have read its the ****, and the reasoning behind my choice is I want to learn how to tune with an RTA and other ways too just because I like the challenge and learning it takes to do, that's the fun of car audio, build, listen fix problems rebuild etc, not just set and forget and never touch , its all the challenge for me keeps me from idle hands leading to addictions in the past, ie I don't want to go drink when I am busy with this, alcoholic FML

trumpet
07-31-2013, 02:55 PM
The forum has been acting up for since this morning for me. I understand the need for productive busy-work, and car audio definitely can address that need. Keep us posted on what you decide to do.

jockhater2
07-31-2013, 03:19 PM
The forum has been acting up for since this morning for me. I understand the need for productive busy-work, and car audio definitely can address that need. Keep us posted on what you decide to do.

So back to my question earlier.
How does a high end head unit. Like an Alpine 9887 or Pioneer P99RS compare to a a lower end HU like an Pioneer 80PRS equipped with a DSP?

trumpet
07-31-2013, 05:24 PM
So back to my question earlier.
How does a high end head unit. Like an Alpine 9887 or Pioneer P99RS compare to a a lower end HU like an Pioneer 80PRS equipped with a DSP?

I've used high end Alpine head units with and without a DSP. I had a 7998 and then I added the PXA-H700. Adding a fully featured DSP makes a very big difference. Coming from a P99RS, the difference may not be as large and easily noticed, but it will depend on how the system is configured. I've had the MS-8 on the Clarion CZ702, the CX501, and now the PPI P-771NX. All 3 of them sounded virtually identical. The MS-8 makes it.

jockhater2
07-31-2013, 05:28 PM
I've used high end Alpine head units with and without a DSP. I had a 7998 and then I added the PXA-H700. Adding a fully featured DSP makes a very big difference. Coming from a P99RS, the difference may not be as large and easily noticed, but it will depend on how the system is configured. I've had the MS-8 on the Clarion CZ702, the CX501, and now the PPI P-771NX. All 3 of them sounded virtually identical. The MS-8 makes it.

This might be a good route for my brother. How come I hear so much praise over the JBL MS-8 when it is the cheapest?

trumpet
07-31-2013, 06:22 PM
This might be a good route for my brother. How come I hear so much praise over the JBL MS-8 when it is the cheapest?

It's $799 from authorized dealers. Like so many brands it has made its way through the gray market to the discounters. I can't speak on behalf of JBL as to why this is happening, but I don't like it.

jockhater2
07-31-2013, 06:49 PM
It's $799 from authorized dealers. Like so many brands it has made its way through the gray market to the discounters. I can't speak on behalf of JBL as to why this is happening, but I don't like it.

Oh ok. There is one used on caco for 350 shipped. I didn't actually check prices on it new. But I thought it was one of the cheaper ones.

NoLoud4U
08-01-2013, 03:13 AM
The MS-8 is easily available which drives the grey market price down