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Oraclem19
07-16-2013, 06:52 PM
Looking to replace a set of oval speakers, one in the 5" size and one 6"x8" with some better quality speakers. This should be a stealth build so all I can really do is coaxial and put a good baffle and ccf on it.
Setup does have a small 12" sealed that sounds quite right for the car, and provides a lot of THUD to the music.

Thought as a creative conversion, a better new set to put in might be having the 12" in the rear for up to 100hz, the 6"x8" coaxial in the rear doors for 63-250hz(500?, 1k, no cross?), and then bring the front to a more crisp sound making an adapter plate for the 5"x7" holes and putting a 4" driver and a 1" tweeter up there.

Would a 4" and a 1" woofer provide clear sounds from the vocals upwards if crossed correctly?
The rear of the vehicle should provide most of the midbass and lows, just don't want the rear to be the ONLY part providing midbass and lows.

Thoughts on if this is a good idea, suggestions, recommendations?

Edit- Also just noticed that if I can fit 3/4 mdf between door and mounting location, I may be able to put a 5.25 component set in the front, would this assure some midbass as well as clearing up the highs?

zako
07-21-2013, 07:50 AM
Why not use a 6x8 or a 5x7 coaxial speaker? The oval cone itself does not need to reduce the quality of sound. There are several good coaxial speakers to choose from, sorted by price: Hybrid Audio Mirus, Image Dynamics XS-57, JL Audio C5-570.

Oraclem19
07-21-2013, 08:38 AM
Those options are the budget of the entire 4 speaker set and coming up on the amp budget.
I also think with the Metal Rock and vocal dub styles of music a 4" woofer with tweeter would greatly improve front stage imaging. I have always found coaxials to not provide the same quality in vocals. The rear set is 6x8 to still provide plenty of midbass in the car with a good amount of bass coming from the 12 in back.

The sub itself is only running short of 300w. No need for a 250w front stage. I don't know of a quality brand that makes a $100 set of 5x7s with crossover and good coaxial response. I figure finding a set of used 4" may be easier and provide some vocal clarity while leaving a set of slightly budget 6x8s to take care of the midbass and low vocal rear fill.

Jdm94Coupe
07-21-2013, 09:46 AM
Those options are the budget of the entire 4 speaker set and coming up on the amp budget.
I also think with the Metal Rock and vocal dub styles of music a 4" woofer with tweeter would greatly improve front stage imaging. I have always found coaxials to not provide the same quality in vocals. The rear set is 6x8 to still provide plenty of midbass in the car with a good amount of bass coming from the 12 in back.

The sub itself is only running short of 300w. No need for a 250w front stage. I don't know of a quality brand that makes a $100 set of 5x7s with crossover and good coaxial response. I figure finding a set of used 4" may be easier and provide some vocal clarity while leaving a set of slightly budget 6x8s to take care of the midbass and low vocal rear fill.

You seem to be way off with your thoughts of what will sound better. There are A LOT of heavily experienced audio people on this site, if you make a thread asking ?'s..... you probably should seriously listen to the responses.

Oraclem19
07-21-2013, 10:12 AM
You seem to be way off with your thoughts of what will sound better. There are A LOT of heavily experienced audio people on this site, if you make a thread asking ?'s..... you probably should seriously listen to the responses.

Always do, the response was just unfeesable because one set cost the same as my whole 4 speaker build. If I am wrong about the coaxial to components, correct me.
Cheap quality oval speakers do not exist *to my knowledge* where a set of quality 3.5-5.25s can be had for $100.
That and I haven't seen a set of used 5x7 or 6x8s on this site to date.
If there is a front stage with the same wattage of subwoofer that performs the same, lead me onto them. Used to having 100w-200w to 1000w ratio, not 1:1.

If I am wrong to say a 4" midwoofer to take care of vocals and above will do worse than a 5x7, corrrect me.
If I could pop in 4 1708 Pioneer 6.5s or ID CTX 6.5s, I would. But they don't fit, and I am already short on space for a custom bracket.

calebkhill
07-21-2013, 10:22 AM
You seem to be way off with your thoughts of what will sound better. There are A LOT of heavily experienced audio people on this site, if you make a thread asking ?'s..... you probably should seriously listen to the responses.

True.

So front stage.
You have an idea of running midbass in rear, highs up front .

This is not going to give a good sound. You want all your music up front. You want to hear midbass and kick up front, not behind you. And you don't want to separate your lows and highs, after all, music is across the whole spectrum, so you want the whole spectrum up front.

This answers your question about rear fill. Now, rear fill can be a very good thing, but you have to have your front stage solid before you can incorporate rear fill. Rear fill isn't supposed to be used for passengers, not midbass, or anything else but to enhance your front stage (in sq). So forget rear fill until you get more experience and a solid front stage.

For front stage. You want midbass to the highest highs up front. If I was you, I'd get the 5.25 (if that's as big as you can go, 6.5 if you can) component set. Invest in this set, or your gonna end up dissatisfied. If you cheap out.......... then......

With components, you can aim the set how you want, and you have more control over each driver if you run active, rather than no control with a coaxial.
With components you can tune, make adjustments, change location, aim. coaxial not as much..... nearly...

Once you get your front stage, spend allot of time tuning (and aiming/placement if it's an option), with known techniques of tuning (not just turning knobs)

There's alot you can say about this....

calebkhill
07-21-2013, 10:24 AM
I'm 1 250 watt 15, sounds amazing.
Twice as much watts up front. if not more

Oraclem19
07-21-2013, 12:01 PM
True.

So front stage.
You have an idea of running midbass in rear, highs up front .

This is not going to give a good sound. You want all your music up front. You want to hear midbass and kick up front, not behind you. And you don't want to separate your lows and highs, after all, music is across the whole spectrum, so you want the whole spectrum up front.

This answers your question about rear fill. Now, rear fill can be a very good thing, but you have to have your front stage solid before you can incorporate rear fill. Rear fill isn't supposed to be used for passengers, not midbass, or anything else but to enhance your front stage (in sq). So forget rear fill until you get more experience and a solid front stage.
This is good to know. This would explain why my sound improved greatly when I put midbass in up front, and did not lose all that much when I removed my 6.5 rear fill subs in back.
For front stage. You want midbass to the highest highs up front. If I was you, I'd get the 5.25 (if that's as big as you can go, 6.5 if you can) component set. Invest in this set, or your gonna end up dissatisfied. If you cheap out.......... then......
Would have more control if this was my personal build. Right now I am having trouble being able to seal his door. Trying to do decent with <$300 for the 4 speaker set
With components, you can aim the set how you want, and you have more control over each driver if you run active, rather than no control with a coaxial.
With components you can tune, make adjustments, change location, aim. coaxial not as much..... nearly...
If I can fit a 5.25 and a 1" in a 5x7 oval I may try to do this. Need to get a mock up before I can say I will be able to do this. Active will be a nice bonus.
Once you get your front stage, spend allot of time tuning (and aiming/placement if it's an option), with known techniques of tuning (not just turning knobs)
Anymore I could know about this tuning? As of now I may end up mounting tweets with 3M tape to the dash if I can't aim them and having them on a coazial alignment isn't doing it for the customer.
There's alot you can say about this....
Thank you for the info.

calebkhill
07-21-2013, 06:08 PM
Would have more control if this was my personal
build. Right now I am having trouble being able to
seal his door. Trying to do decent with <$300 for
the 4 speaker set

Why don't you invest in a single component set rather than spending more on an extra set?
This is for someone else?


Anymore I could know about this tuning? As of
now I may end up mounting tweets with 3M tape
to the dash if I can't aim them and having them
on a coazial alignment isn't doing it for the
customer.

On axis/off axis
Level matching
Proper crossover points and slopes
Proper use of volume and gains
Proper use of eq
Phase
What reflections will do to your system
Time alignment
Speaker location
Flat response
Comb filtering

Google these things.


I don't know, that's the tip of the ice burg. And that's just the basics. The list goes on.

Of course if this is for a customer then ..... Idk how critical they are on these things

I just know that your initial thoughts aren't ideal, and you should consider a different way to set a system up.

Oraclem19
07-21-2013, 06:25 PM
Why don't you invest in a single component set rather than spending more on an extra set?
This is for someone else?



On axis/off axis
Level matching
Proper crossover points and slopes
Proper use of volume and gains
Proper use of eq
Phase
What reflections will do to your system
Time alignment
Speaker location
Flat response
Comb filtering

Google these things.


I don't know, that's the tip of the ice burg. And that's just the basics. The list goes on.

Of course if this is for a customer then ..... Idk how critical they are on these things

I just know that your initial thoughts aren't ideal, and you should consider a different way to set a system up.
For the 4 speakers, I want to try to get all 4 of his doors replaced with good speakers. Not sure if muddy sound from the rear would muck up the front sound if I only did a set up there.
I am just not sure if I can fit a 5.25 on a mount bracket in his door, and knew a 4" should fit even with a tweeter next to it. The front bracket is only 5x7.
Need to get at least phase and reflections looked into, time alignment won't be adjustable on these budget builds.
Comb filtering I have heard of(can't pull the thought to mind, overlapping frequencies out of phase?) however need to put more look into speaker location.

Unfortunately only about the top half of that list applies to this build, as I can not mount anywhere but the factory holes, can not modify inside or door panels, and might not have enough space between door and door panel to mount the tweet on axis.

calebkhill
07-21-2013, 06:30 PM
What's the budget?

Jdm94Coupe
07-22-2013, 10:40 AM
NOW you guys are cooking!

1. What is the vehicle?
2. Why can you not modify anything and why are you confined to just the factory locations?
3. The rear fill should be kept empty, especially if its one of those cars with a "closed off" rear deck. If anything it can be used to allow the bass from the subwoofer(s) to enter the cabin. Matched with a decent 2 channel amp and a set of 5.25 or 6.5" components, now you're going the correct way!!!

Oraclem19
07-22-2013, 11:19 PM
NOW you guys are cooking!

1. What is the vehicle?
2. Why can you not modify anything and why are you confined to just the factory locations?
3. The rear fill should be kept empty, especially if its one of those cars with a "closed off" rear deck. If anything it can be used to allow the bass from the subwoofer(s) to enter the cabin. Matched with a decent 2 channel amp and a set of 5.25 or 6.5" components, now you're going the correct way!!!

Owner does not want anything modified. He asks, I do, then get paid.
Rear fill is a requirement, especially since it is in the rear doors and not the rear deck. 5x7 in front, 6x8 in back. Might just keep stock in back, use a PPI Black Ice 800.4 or the PPI Phantom 900.4 for the tweets and midranges, possibly bump up the rears a little bit if the 5.25 set is nicely balanced and not overly peaky on tweeter or midrange side. Else I have a small amp I can put on the rears.

Suggestions on the front speakers? 5.25 with a <5" cutout diameter is probably all I can do.
Budget I will say is around $400 for amp and components. Wiring will be taken care of as well as amp.

Jdm94Coupe
07-23-2013, 03:59 AM
Rear fill is a requirement

Budget I will say is around $400 for amp and components.

I would try to explain the sound difference to the owner, ESPECIALLY with such a small budget. Other then that I'm not sure how much help can really be given. Let us know what you decide.

Oraclem19
07-23-2013, 04:11 AM
I would try to explain the sound difference to the owner, ESPECIALLY with such a small budget. Other then that I'm not sure how much help can really be given. Let us know what you decide.

A good set of 5.25 can not be had for ~$150?
Rear fill will be dealt with as I fill in other speakers and see how the car sounds.

Jdm94Coupe
07-23-2013, 09:36 AM
A good set of 5.25 can not be had for ~$150?
Rear fill will be dealt with as I fill in other speakers and see how the car sounds.

Sorry I thought you meant $400 for front stage components, amplifier, and rear fill speakers?

OldManBass
07-23-2013, 10:23 AM
He might want to bump that budget a bit... nothing left for door treatment = anything you install isn't likely going to sound very good.

Oraclem19
07-23-2013, 08:30 PM
He might want to bump that budget a bit... nothing left for door treatment = anything you install isn't likely going to sound very good.
No modification to car. Tempted to try to do a basket style treatment to door.
Although I must say, his midbass was quite nice even with stock speakers. may not be gaping holes to worry about anyway. If I did anything it would have to be temporary.
MAYBE a 10 sq ft pack of AT, white so if any residue is left it won't look like someone **** on the door. Need to find that oven video.


Sorry I thought you meant $400 for front stage components, amplifier, and rear fill speakers?

If that is possible yes.
Looks like about $240-$340 for speakers right now(all 4)
need something with a <5" cutout diameter for front, and <6" cutout diameter for rear. Might be able to make an adapter plate and put 6"x9" in rear.

And remember low budget. Even the $340 for speakers is pushing it. No deadener unless can be removed with no residue(proven), and isn't 5$ a sq ft. Budget budget budget.

57paully
11-21-2013, 11:29 PM
JBL has 2 options for a 5x7. A 2 ohm co-axial with passive crossover is the POWER Series P8662 with 75 RMS or 225 peak including pivoting tweeter, or the GTO-8628 with 60RMS and 180peak.(GTO-6829 is the newer more $ addition).
Infinity Kappa 6829 300w peak is one more choice you have, but I chose the P8662, the best bang for my buck @ $150./pair!