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View Full Version : How do I get bass out of my door speakers?



kabosh
06-09-2013, 04:39 AM
So I'm interested in getting some decent speakers for my doors in my 99 mountaineer. Right now I have excelon series coaxial 5x7's in my doors and they sound ok, they have hardly any bass and the bass they do have doesnt sound very good. Now is that because I have them powered by my head unit (also excelon) and not powered by an amp, or should i replace them. I'm looking to get a decent thump out of my regular speakers so I don't have to fool with a sub for the time being and can still be moderately happy. Nothing crazy though. I want it to sound good while doing so as well. If I get an amp to push these will they have good bass and sound pretty good, or should i get some nice components? How do you get bass out of your door speakers? Also is deadening my doors part of the solution? I honestly just have No idea how to setup a good sounding speaker system. All ive really fooled with is subs, while just hooking up my speakers to my cd player and going. I've tried doing the research to find what im looking for on this but it seems to be a lot more complicated then setting up my 1 12 was lol. Any tips on components,amps, or just how to improve the ones I currently have is greatly appreciated.

black05alti
06-09-2013, 04:46 AM
You can start out by sealing and deadening your doors. That should help out a good bit with the midbass.

kabosh
06-09-2013, 04:51 AM
You can start out by sealing and deadening your doors. That should help out a good bit with the midbass.

how many sq ft of deadener am i gong to need for four suv doors or per door? is there a general rule of thumb on that. Also I have no idea how you go about sealing your doors, or is it kinda the same thing as when i lay down the sheet of deadener

EDIT: what i mean to say is sealing and deading two completely seperate proccesses?

whitedragon551
06-09-2013, 08:50 AM
how many sq ft of deadener am i gong to need for four suv doors or per door? is there a general rule of thumb on that. Also I have no idea how you go about sealing your doors, or is it kinda the same thing as when i lay down the sheet of deadener

EDIT: what i mean to say is sealing and deading two completely seperate proccesses?

Sealing is covering the holes in the sheet metal. You want to fill as many in as you possibly can. For deadener use the 25% coverage rule. You only need to apply it to the flat surface areas of the outer and inner sheet metals. Curved metals or braces are more resistant to vibrations than the flat parts.

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 09:02 AM
Um. I doubt deadening is gonna do anything with those running off the head unit......
And 5x7s aren't meant for good bass and midbass.....

whitedragon551
06-09-2013, 09:03 AM
Um. I doubt deadening is gonna do anything with those running off the head unit......
And 5x7s aren't meant for good bass and midbass.....

Doesnt matter what he is running. To get good bass he will have to seal and deaden his doors. Even running 5x7's off of HU power will improve in bass output.

black05alti
06-09-2013, 09:06 AM
Doesnt matter what he is running. To get good bass he will have to seal and deaden his doors. Even running 5x7's off of HU power will improve in bass output.

Exactly.

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 09:08 AM
Doesnt matter what he is running. To get good bass he will have to seal and deaden his doors. Even running 5x7's off of HU power will improve in bass output.

Its still gonna sound like crap if he deadens first.
I say get the components first and then deaden.

basswiigee
06-09-2013, 09:11 AM
how many sq ft of deadener am i gong to need for four suv doors or per door? is there a general rule of thumb on that. Also I have no idea how you go about sealing your doors, or is it kinda the same thing as when i lay down the sheet of deadener

EDIT: what i mean to say is sealing and deading two completely seperate proccesses?

hushmat door kit usually 4sqft

black05alti
06-09-2013, 09:11 AM
Its still gonna sound like crap if he deadens first.
I say get the components first and then deaden.

The midbass will become more alive if he seals and deadens the doors... It'll still be lacking midbass if he gets components and doesn't seal and deaden...

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 09:16 AM
The midbass will become more alive if he seals and deadens the doors... It'll still be lacking midbass if he gets components and doesn't seal and deaden...

Not necessarily.
A lack of power and a good driver is the main concern.
Deadening is just for improvement.
Crappy speakers on crappy power will sound crappy no matter what you do.
I would never deaden before I upgraded my drivers.....

black05alti
06-09-2013, 09:20 AM
Not necessarily.
A lack of power and a good driver is the main concern.
Deadening is just for improvement.
Crappy speakers on crappy power will sound crappy no matter what you do.
I would never deaden before I upgraded my drivers.....

Do some research.

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 09:43 AM
Do some research.
You too

black05alti
06-09-2013, 09:45 AM
You too

I have :) That's why I sealed more doors for better midbass.

Why So Cereal?
06-09-2013, 10:14 AM
All 3 need to be done: amp, better speakers, and door treatment.

The order is really not that serious as long as it all gets done.

Just remember OP, to get the BEST extension from your speakers, seals and deadening are essential

kabosh
06-09-2013, 02:53 PM
Ok can I get some suggestions on what components to buy for good mid bass, my door speaker holes are for 5x7s, what all can I fit into those slots? Also how many sq ft of deadener will I need per door, 4? I would like to keep my budget down to a 100 a pair or as much below that as I can lol.

jc85
06-09-2013, 03:03 PM
I didn't read all the comments. But, I have Rockford Fosgate punch 2way 6X8 door speakers on Kenwood ddin radio. I turn hpf on the radio on. No bass for interior. Sounds good and clean. Now when I want no subs. I can tune my radio for interior has bass. Sounds good. I got door and speakers area sound dented. And no amp for interior. And to me Rockford Fosgate punch speakers sound amazing. I'm very impressed atleast with them. Know a lot of people that are.

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 03:12 PM
Ok can I get some suggestions on what components to buy for good mid bass, my door speaker holes are for 5x7s, what all can I fit into those slots? Also how many sq ft of deadener will I need per door, 4?

PHD probably best components you'll ever own

PHD - Speakers - Series FB - (http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/speakers/fb.asp)

Props to PHD (http://Www.mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?1332-Props-to-PHD)

250 a set though

kabosh
06-09-2013, 03:50 PM
Also i just found a Rockford p2002 in my closet, tested it on some old speakers and it works. If I throw that on my front or back door speakers will it make a decent difference til I have the budget to get better components and a four channel?

kabosh
06-09-2013, 03:51 PM
PHD probably best components you'll ever own

PHD - Speakers - Series FB - (http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/speakers/fb.asp)

Props to PHD (http://Www.mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?1332-Props-to-PHD)

250 a set though

That will never be in my budget. But thanks for the help lol

trumpet
06-09-2013, 05:51 PM
JBL GTO8628
calebkhill, think about what you're saying about doing speaker upgrades before sound deadening. If the speaker "enclosure", as in the door, is made to be a superior enclosure then how could the stock speakers not sound better? Especially if products are put in place to block road noise, this benefits in more audible output without adding any power. You're making the speakers sound better without changing anything but the door.

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 05:56 PM
JBL GTO8628
calebkhill, think about what you're saying about doing speaker upgrades before sound deadening. If the speaker "enclosure", as in the door, is made to be a superior enclosure then how could the stock speakers not sound better? Especially if products are put in place to block road noise, this benefits in more audible output without adding any power. You're making the speakers sound better without changing anything but the door.

I understand where your coming from, but were talking about midbass, probably the hardest area to achIeve.
Stock speakers, hu power, I just don't see a whole lot of improvement trying to get anything out of that set up by deadening.

Probably just lead to disappointment.

On the other hand, amping a decent comp set will show instant improvement, then that's when you follow up with deadening.

winkychevelle
06-09-2013, 06:32 PM
how many sq ft of deadener am i gong to need for four suv doors or per door? is there a general rule of thumb on that. Also I have no idea how you go about sealing your doors, or is it kinda the same thing as when i lay down the sheet of deadener

EDIT: what i mean to say is sealing and deading two completely seperate proccesses?


I understand where your coming from, but were talking about midbass, probably the hardest area to achIeve.
Stock speakers, hu power, I just don't see a whole lot of improvement trying to get anything out of that set up by deadening.

Probably just lead to disappointment.

On the other hand, amping a decent comp set will show instant improvement, then that's when you follow up with deadening.

You are terribly incorrect

The main reason for sealing doors is to keep the rear wave of the speaker from interfering with the front wave. With out the seals the waves combine which being inverted sound waves this causes cancelation.

Cancelation is the biggest down fall to mid bass not product quality

Keephopealive recently switched from a pair of 30 buck mids that he swore he wouldn't due to the fact that the cheap midbasses performed so well. He's an acoustical engineer who excels at sq installs

So go do some research before you try telling someone what to do

Op I suggest a set of I'd ctx6.5 components on a decent 75w each with about 8-10sqft of deadener per door. Weather stripping inbetween the speaker mounting ring and the door card both under and over the ring can make a great deal of difference

Look up keephopealive's accord in the build log section lots of info there

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 06:41 PM
Well, all I can say is spend the money on deadener, then telO us if your satisfied with the sound.

If not then you'll have to deal with it until you save up more money for new drivers and amp...

winkychevelle
06-09-2013, 07:10 PM
Well, all I can say is spend the money on deadener, then telO us if your satisfied with the sound.

If not then you'll have to deal with it until you save up more money for new drivers and amp...

He already has aftermarket speakers and he just found an amp idk where you think he said he had factory speakers. He has kenwood excelon 5x7s which will produce copious amounts of mid bass if installed correctly

Yes an amp will help yes they have better speakers out the but no better speakers isn't the next best move.

I've deadened factory doors for every car I've owned and it makes a tremendous difference you must not of ever done this correctly or you would know this

black05alti
06-09-2013, 07:51 PM
He already has aftermarket speakers and he just found an amp idk where you think he said he had factory speakers. He has kenwood excelon 5x7s which will produce copious amounts of mid bass if installed correctly

Yes an amp will help yes they have better speakers out the but no better speakers isn't the next best move.

I've deadened factory doors for every car I've owned and it makes a tremendous difference you must not of ever done this correctly or you would know this

Thank you. I was hoping OP wouldn't go towards caleb's suggestion.

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:26 PM
i am a huge proponent of door treatments.

let's talk and show what that means.

Seals
Door seals are vital, as mentioned above. You need to recognize that you are changing the factory system which has seals on the rear and front of the speakers. the plastic door panel IS THE FRONT SPEAKER BAFFLE in a stock door. The seal between the speaker and that door panel is what provides midbass. A lot of stock systems have good midbass response simply because the speakers are efficient and as well sealed as possible. When people drop in aftermarket speakers, they almost always neglect that stock seal. All it takes is a $4 roll of closed cell foam weatherstripping around the front of the woofer. That seal alone, even without deadening, will make a good difference and is the bare minimum for any speaker install. it is so important, i think all speakers should come with that in the box!

we also want to turn the door cavity into a sealed enclosure. we want to close up the large holes that provide access. i use wood or sheet metal with screws. note any wood used should be waterproof.

Deadening
This concept is basically to reduce how long the metal rings out. for example, rap your kuckles on the metal in several places. listen to how long the sound lasts after you hit it. each part of the car sounds different and it's worse in the middle of large panels. simply adding stiffening will help a lot. on a budget, just taking treated plywood and siliconing it to the outer door skin (inside the door) would make an audible difference. viscoelastic and elastomeric sound damping products do a great job with less weight. You don't see people putting wood inside their doors, but that doesn't mean it won't work. think about it this way - if you build a speaker enclosure, what do you use? would you use thin sheet metal with holes and a plastic front baffle? nope. so our effort is to turn this hollow metal cavity into a valid speaker enclosure that is rigid and non-resonant.

absorption
this is also neglected in doors but adding sound absorption is equally vital. we need to not only isolate the rear wave from the front but also absorb it. if we don't, the rear sound will bounce around inside the cavity then come back out through the speaker cone later. preventing the rear wave from coming back to the cone is one of the most vital aspects of speaker enclosure design for midrange and midbass. I achieve this with bags of fiberglass batt insulation. a cheap solution that has worked for 50 years. the bags just keep it from getting wet and are thin as possible (i use 1mil plastic).

examples:
http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-build-logs-cars-trucks-suvs/536049-2001-accord-ex-sedan-its-long.html
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/accord/doorfiberglassbags008.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/accord/doorfiberglassbags014.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/accord/doorfiberglassbags015.jpg

Silver Flute 6.5
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/accord/doorfiberglassbags016.jpg

replaced with German Maestro Status
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/accord/IMG_20130414_162505_249.jpg

But the Silver Flute gave more midbass when ran in a 3-way. so i'll likely put the Silver Flute back in teh doors as midbass and move the German Maestro to new kick pods.

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:27 PM
http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-build-logs-cars-trucks-suvs/567468-kha-does-spl-build-1996-astro-van.html
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors002.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/IMG_20130518_220320_470.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors001.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors003.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors004.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors015.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors018.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors006.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors009.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/BrianAstroVan/brianvandoors010.jpg

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:30 PM
http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-build-logs-cars-trucks-suvs/516096-2005-scion-tc-sq-hertz-audison-pioneer-build-log.html

Factory Door - remove panel, remove all wiring clips, remove factory speaker, and clean all metal surfaces
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors004.jpg

Trace the factory speakers and make a new baffle out of 3/4" MDF
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors005.jpg

Mount using the factory speaker rivet holes and a 1.5" 10-24 machine screw and bolt.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors002.jpg

Test fit before deadening
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors001.jpg

You can't let MDF get wet - deaden the baffle
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors006.jpg

Cover it 100%
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors008.jpg

but don't cover the mounting holes! :)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors007.jpg



you must protect the speaker from rain water. i use 3/4" closed cell foam weatherstripping along the top of the inside of the opening. gives the water a channel to follow AROUND the speaker.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors020.jpg

then deaden the seam between the baffle and the door and over the foam
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors023.jpg

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:30 PM
Hertz Mille MLK-165 pics

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors017.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors016.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors014.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/2005tC_doors012.jpg

so how do you seal those **** holes?!?!?
with sheets of aluminum with a layer of BXT II on each side and a layer of CCF on one side, that's how. :)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1551.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1557.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1558.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1559.jpg

then you use a ton of self-piercing sheet metal screws
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1560.jpg

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:31 PM
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1556.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1554.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1552.jpg

top hole
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1562.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1563.jpg

now that the holes are closed up, remove the foam on the door panel
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1565.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1566.jpg

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:31 PM
to prevent noises with the panel on the deadener, we covered the door with CCF and also foamed each panel clip
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1567.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1568.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1572.jpg

repeat on the passenger side
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1570.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1580.jpg

finished
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1582.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e128/phat_funky_beats/2005sciontC/IMG_1578.jpg

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 08:36 PM
keep_hope_alive;
Why on earth would you do 100% coverage off cld. Such a waste.....

Sarcasm......

keep_hope_alive
06-09-2013, 08:40 PM
all three cars have awesome midbass response. you can see/feel your pants move.
all have front components that cost $500-$900. But $100 speakers would sound great in these doors.
all have external amplifiers on the speakers for plenty of clean power.
All have a combination of deadening, fiberglass bags, foam weatherstripping, and are fully sealed.

Deadening:
The van has 8 sq. ft. per door.
The accord and scion have closer to 20 sq. ft. per door.

The front doors are responsible for most of what you hear, and should receive more attention than anything else in the system. To duplicate this, you should budget 10 hours per door, start to finish. Can be done in half that time if you already know what you are doing.

some people say 25% deadener coverage is all you need and more than that is wasting it. i know a few acoustical engineers that would disagree with their marketing attempts. "buy my product and use less". Fact is, patches create multiple resonance modes. The industry tests damping and resonance by knocking on the panels. knock until the entire panel is dead and you have achieved your goal. ideally, you would add enough mass and damping to lower the resonance frequency to be below the speaker range. simply adding layers of wood to the inner door would come very close to achieving that goal. 2" of wood is pretty dead. :) also, besides making the car very, very dead. 100% coverage also greatly improves transmission loss (blocks noise).

CCF is just to isolate the door panel from the door metal. could just be done where the panel contacts the door. instead of CCF, you could use fabrics like felt or fleece. buzzing isolation is just soft stuff between hard things. pretty simple.

closed cell foam doesn't absorb or block much sound (highs get blocked). open cell foam barely absorbs sound and doesn't block sound either. the next step is Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) for road noise blocking. but door seals themselves and the glass are larger sources once you do the above.

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 08:43 PM
all three cars have awesome midbass response. you can see/feel your pants move.
all have front components that cost $500-$900. But $100 speakers would sound great in these doors.
all have external amplifiers on the speakers for plenty of clean power.
All have a combination of deadening, fiberglass bags, foam weatherstripping, and are fully sealed.

Deadening:
The van has 8 sq. ft. per door.
The accord and scion have closer to 20 sq. ft. per door.

The front doors are responsible for most of what you hear, and should receive more attention than anything else in the system. To duplicate this, you should budget 10 hours per door, start to finish. Can be done in half that time if you already know what you are doing.

some people say 25% deadener coverage is all you need and more than that is wasting it. i know a few acoustical engineers that would disagree with their marketing attempts. "buy my product and use less". Fact is, patches create multiple resonance modes. The industry tests damping and resonance by knocking on the panels. knock until the entire panel is dead and you have achieved your goal.

CCF is just to isolate the door panel from the door metal. could just be done where the panel contacts the door. instead of CCF, you could use fabrics like felt or fleece. buzzing isolation is just soft stuff between hard things. pretty simple.

closed cell foam doesn't absorb or block much sound (highs get blocked). open cell foam barely absorbs sound and doesn't block sound either. the next step is Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) for road noise blocking. but door seals themselves and the glass are larger sources once you do the above.

Thanks for a very thorough response kha

jeffdachef
01-26-2014, 01:13 AM
sorry to resurrect an old thread but this is a very awesome thread with great info.

Got some spare time tomorrow so I'm gonna take off the door panels tomorrow to work on rear wave absorption with fiberglass insulation tomorrow and i got a question,
keep_hope_alive ; where do you get your 1 millimeter plastic sheet for cheap? all the packages they have at home depot are around 35-60 dollars each... and have a long delivery time Can 2 or 4 or 6 millimeter work? Or is it going to cause plastic noise or even reflecting waves? Also what do you use to seal the plastic sheets into bags? would this be fine? http://www.walmart.com/ip/iTouchless-Bag-Re-Sealer-for-All-Plastic-Bags-2-Unit-Pack/10247581

EDIT: How about two layers of the plastic food wrap? Would that work? i have a ton of those at home.

keep_hope_alive
01-26-2014, 08:08 PM
my local hardware stores have painters drop cloth in 1mil thickness for $3.

and yes, grocery bags would also work. thinner is better.

BockSTK
05-07-2014, 05:24 AM
****...I just learned a lot!