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Oraclem19
06-05-2013, 04:42 AM
Trying to give an equal fade or some emphasis to the lower tones of the hearing range in my stage (33-150/200hz) and have so far been able to do a decent job of the lower ranges(33-50 hz) but am struggling to keep the pressure there with 45-150 hz.
Still working with unsealed factory doors.

Is a good 6.5 in a deadened, polyfilled or inuslated, sealed door the end all solution to loud mid-midlow bass?
Or could a 8 modified into these positions or added as a sealed attachment to a sub box a better idea?

Could it almost be considered to use a high-er Fs 10" in a sealed box/high port Fs box to get these ranges taken care of on top of the sub-stage?

Could likely find a solution to this with lots of research and trial and error, that would need a lot of funds that I do not currently have at this time, and my car sound is lacking.

I could be overlooking a lot of box options for 12"s and 10"s or even 8"s like the SA-8, and not even need to sacrifice midrange stage to get this balanced. Any help from the practiced of this forum would be much appreciated, as would any other advice.

Why So Cereal?
06-05-2013, 10:42 AM
Start by sealing and deadening the doors and working on reducing cancellation as much as possible with a good set of 6.5s.

What's your sub stage like? Unless its something crazy, that should keep up fine.

trumpet
06-05-2013, 11:44 AM
What do you have now for your subwoofer setup? What's the vehicle?

calebkhill
06-07-2013, 07:08 AM
Start by sealing and deadening the doors and working on reducing cancellation as much as possible with a good set of 6.5s.

What's your sub stage like? Unless its something crazy, that should keep up fine.

Agreed. Deadened doors with a nice set of mids will do it.
Ann 8 would be nice if your were willing to modify.
But a Nice set of 6.5 should so it.
Check out exodus anarchy at diycable.com, there are very nice.

calebkhill
06-07-2013, 07:26 AM
But I don't know how you plan to get 45hz out if a mid

Oraclem19
06-07-2013, 08:59 AM
the 45-60/70 is moreso me having problems with substage being balanced all the way through the range, upwards of that is the door problems.
Waiting on Z.4 or the new IA 4" line, considering a Reign in the meantime. Came up from dual 10 kicker, dual 10 Pioneer champion, 12 AP12, to the Pioneer Champion Pro. Figured I should make the jump to something high in quality on sub and not take chances between those 12s and getting a proper 12.

MD2D to power until I break 2k. Guessing amping, sealing, and deadening door speakers should take care of the problem. Concerned the area in rear seat will be lacking thud and sq on the midbass range with only having the door speakers producing it. I may be flawed from lack of experience here.

Slow build, <40 hr weeks with few other things to pay.

These CDT 6.5s. popular Pioneer 6.5s, Daytona reference 6.5s or RE cs 6.5s looking like my best shot at achieving this in one go? Don't want a graveyard of 6.5s like I have subs, funds simply won't allow.



Also sphere the tweeters correct? Or spare the tweeters, not sure how much of the range these can cover and I have been tweeterless for some time.

calebkhill
06-07-2013, 09:16 AM
I understand the time and funds problem, most of us have the same problems.

CDT I hear has great speakers. trumpet;
I hear Good about Dayton also, though I can't comment on their midbass output.

I can recommend PHD. I have a set of them and midbass is phenomenal. Very punchy, but also full and detailed. They get loud too.
PHD - Speakers - Series FB - (http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/speakers/fb.asp)

Also check out those exodus anarchy I mentioned.
DIYCable.com (http://Www.diycable.com)

And yes, you will want a tweeter set to accompany the mids.

What is your budget?

Why So Cereal?
06-07-2013, 09:21 AM
My best midbass to date has come from my Peerless Exclusive HDS Nomex mids.

I had a lot of effort into that install though. Sealed doors, solid baffles, good deadening, and most time consumingly, time aligned the midbass drivers with the subs. It actually got to the point where I had to tone down the midbass area on my EQ but never was the location of the midbass misconceived for being behind me. Not once did u actually listen to a song and think about the sub being behind you. It was either midbass in front of you, or really low bass all around you.

Why So Cereal?
06-07-2013, 09:22 AM
If you just want a budget component set, go Pioneer D series or Image Dynamics CTX.

Both gave me awesome midbass. Right now I have the CTXs with little door treatment...only a solid baffle...and the midbass stays up front with a little level matching and EQ work.

calebkhill
06-07-2013, 09:41 AM
My best midbass to date has come from my Peerless Exclusive HDS Nomex mids.

I had a lot of effort into that install though. Sealed doors, solid baffles, good deadening, and most time consumingly, time aligned the midbass drivers with the subs. It actually got to the point where I had to tone down the midbass area on my EQ but never was the location of the midbass misconceived for being behind me. Not once did u actually listen to a song and think about the sub being behind you. It was either midbass in front of you, or really low bass all around you.

I need to ta my mids and subs, just don't have the processing for it. Why was it time consuming?

Why So Cereal?
06-07-2013, 09:44 AM
I need to ta my mids and subs, just don't have the processing for it. Why was it time consuming?

I'm a perfectionist so I wouldn't stop until I felt it was perfect.

Getting into the general area takes no time. Just hold the TA button increasing the delay until the bass jumps up front.

trumpet
06-07-2013, 11:27 AM
You'll get better results by taking a more moderate approach and stop expecting your door speakers to play down to bass frequencies. You don't need a 6.5" woofer to play into subwoofer territory to get strong midbass. These should be your priorities:

Sound deadening with vibration damper - any good CLD damper product applied to the flat surfaces
Vibration damping with closed cell foam - good CCF is great to have around your garage for when you find panels rattling against each other. Place them between parts that are touching.
Block sound from coming through the door. On top of the CCF you can attach a layer of mass loaded vinyl. Welcome to Sound Deadener Showdown | Sound Deadener Showdown (http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com)
Build a gasket around the speaker to seal it against the door panel. This focuses the energy through the grille.
Look up keep_hope_alive 's build log for his Accord to see how he added fiberglass insulation inside his doors. I've been meaning to do this for months and it seems to get good results every time.


Your speaker won't play as well as it can if you don't treat the door more like a speaker enclosure. It will never actually seal up like a speaker box, but I listed proven techniques that can work wonders.

A good set of speakers and an amp are things I can get you, but the sound deadening treatments are going to take some real effort on your part.

Oraclem19
06-08-2013, 12:20 AM
So as far as doing the doors, everything that I have seen done, is a good thing to do, polyfil-fiberglass, improve gasket quality(have done, not well though), deaden, MLV on inside of door ontop of CLD, CLD then MLV then CCF on door panel on the interior side, get an eq (hopefully with time correction) and add .7~ ms delay, pick a quality set of components and let er rip?

For correction the part about 45hz was pertaining to the fact that the boxes I can build right now are BOOMINGLY loud 33-45 hz, but after that it starts to lose some of the feeling and becomes more sound from 45-80 hz. Only need these components to get 80- lowpass filter. The sub box problem is a different thread though.

zako
06-08-2013, 06:08 AM
SPL increases with driver's total air displacement potential. The displacement is cone area times xmax travel of the woofer. So even a 6.5 inch speaker could displace a lot of air with high enough xmax. However, with too much travel the voice coil can hit the back plate, and the speaker bottoms out. So if the suspension is too "loose" your speaker bottoms out, but if it is too stiff, the bass output will severely roll off at lower frequencies. Normally, very low resonance frequency also is a good indication of driver's ability to play low well.

If you want something affordable, look at Massive Audio CK6 components. The woofers supposedly have very good bass potential, as you can also verify from high xmax and low resonance frequency as published in their T/S parameters (one of the few car speakers that gives T/S parameters in documentation). Overall good woofers covering frequencies up to 3KHz. Many find the tweeters a bit harsh and bright though. If you want something more expensive, consider Hybrid Audio Clarus. These have good bass potential, but what makes them so expensive is also the midrange capability resulting in smooth flat frequency response from 50HZ to something like 5KHz.

Having said that, I would have preferred a 2-way or 3-way active speaker system employing a 6x9 or 8 inch midbass. If well executed, the result is often cleaner tighter, stronger and more up front sounding midbass. This of course is more expensive and complex to setup, so my second choice would be a high quality 2-way speaker system using 6x9 mids, like Image Dynamics XS or Hybrid Audio Imagine.

trumpet
06-08-2013, 12:37 PM
I still don't understand why you can't get any midbass out of your subwoofer. I think if you changed your sub or the box you would have so much kick in the midbass you wouldn't know what to do. I have no problems with my subwoofer thumping hard on kick drums in rock and metal. I actually tune the 60-90 Hz region down a bit because it's too intense to sound natural, and this is with a vented enclosure. My sub/midbass crossover is 80 Hz 24 dB/octave.

Oraclem19
06-09-2013, 02:15 AM
May just be listening to the wrong songs, working on mostly Youtube downloads and some small Soundcloud artists. Simple ported box, 3/4 MDF, caulked and all that, no brace though(don't think this needs it at these sound levels).
Is a higher Fs in the 40s needed to take care of midbass? Deaden trunk? Running the same 80hz 24 crossover. Might just not be listening to songs with the correct db level of midbass, and have no EQ to correct. Are you running a 30-40hz tuned box? Thinking about going bass reflex/light horn box on the next one. I know I don't have the space to even T-line a 8".

calebkhill
06-09-2013, 09:13 AM
May just be listening to the wrong songs, working on mostly Youtube downloads and some small Soundcloud artists.

There is a major problem. YouTube? Streaming music? No wonder your system sounds like......



Is a higher Fs in the 40s needed to take care of midbass? Deaden trunk? Running the same 80hz 24 crossover. Might just not be listening to songs with the correct db level of midbass, and have no EQ to correct. Are you running a 30-40hz tuned box? Thinking about going bass reflex/light horn box on the next one. I know I don't have the space to even T-line a 8".

Bro, midbass is achieved with door speakers, not subwoofers...... 40hz isn't in the midbass region, that's sub level....
Midbass is 80hz up to somewhere around 300hz (i'm estimating).
So you need to get a set of components that can handle this range with authority, along with properly tuning them to play this range.

As mentioned by zako;, a pair of 6X9s will take care if this considerimg cone area. Also consider power handling. A bit of power for midbass pays off.

Proper installation and tuning will be the deciding factor in how they will sound.

Oraclem19
06-13-2013, 01:17 PM
I still don't understand why you can't get any midbass out of your subwoofer. I think if you changed your sub or the box you would have so much kick in the midbass you wouldn't know what to do. I have no problems with my subwoofer thumping hard on kick drums in rock and metal. I actually tune the 60-90 Hz region down a bit because it's too intense to sound natural, and this is with a vented enclosure. My sub/midbass crossover is 80 Hz 24 dB/octave.


There is a major problem. YouTube? Streaming music? No wonder your system sounds like......



Bro, midbass is achieved with door speakers, not subwoofers...... 40hz isn't in the midbass region, that's sub level....
Midbass is 80hz up to somewhere around 300hz (i'm estimating).
So you need to get a set of components that can handle this range with authority, along with properly tuning them to play this range.

As mentioned by zako;, a pair of 6X9s will take care if this considerimg cone area. Also consider power handling. A bit of power for midbass pays off.

Proper installation and tuning will be the deciding factor in how they will sound.

... Not going to say I am inclined to believe the guy with a vendor account, and it was to the best of my knowledge that subwoofers did not produce midbass, but I have two conflicting arguments in the same thread.

1. For the downloads aspect, always 720p, mp3 320 convert, yadda yadda. Heard 480 a few times live streaming, not good. I'm just saying I may not know the right songs to test my midbass. Most song lists on sites like these consist of 30-45 hz oriented songs.

2. No chance on the 6x9s. Last I heard the only sets worth picking up were out of my monthly pay range, much less spending limit. As well as having replaced the mounting area for them with boxes for jl 6w3v3s. Still need a proper amp for those though, the Performance Teknique I scrapped off my first Kicker box isn't cutting it without clipping.

3. (Pertaining to the 80-300hz range) Attain quality components, get amp with 133%-125% components' RMS power, amplify the components, deaden doors, seal doors, polyfil/fiberglass insul doors, install airtight weatherstripped/caulked baffle, install components, attain midbass, quality, and clarity.
(Pertaining to the 80-40hz range) Redesign box <Suggestions? New design style from ported to bass reflex, horn, bandpass 4/6, even sealed?>

Does 3 look correct?

trumpet
06-13-2013, 02:06 PM
I'm just saying I may not know the right songs to test my midbass. Most song lists on sites like these consist of 30-45 hz oriented songs.

If you're into electronic music some of it has some hard hitting midbass for the beat. Underworld - Kittens has gotten my midbasses playing pretty loudly back when I was crossing them at 50 Hz(which I do not recommend). I don't know what frequency the kick is centered at, but you can get the song on YouTube. It sounds fine even at 360p.


2. No chance on the 6x9s. Last I heard the only sets worth picking up were out of my monthly pay range, much less spending limit. As well as having replaced the mounting area for them with boxes for jl 6w3v3s. Still need a proper amp for those though, the Performance Teknique I scrapped off my first Kicker box isn't cutting it without clipping.

There are good 6x9 subs from CDT Audio that range from $150/pr to $300/pr. They don't require boxes.


3. (Pertaining to the 80-300hz range) Attain quality components, get amp with 133%-125% components' RMS power, amplify the components, deaden doors, seal doors, polyfil/fiberglass insul doors, install airtight weatherstripped/caulked baffle, install components, attain midbass, quality, and clarity.
(Pertaining to the 80-40hz range) Redesign box <Suggestions? New design style from ported to bass reflex, horn, bandpass 4/6, even sealed?>

Does 3 look correct?

Put the fiberglass insulation in thin plastic bags. Don't use polyfill, the fiberglass is much better. I don't really agree on the "133%-125% components' RMS power" part, but some extra power is always good. I would buy more power rather than not enough, to a point.

If making a new box isn't a big deal I would try a sealed box. It should broaden the response over what you're hearing now, as I suspect your box is peaking way too low.

Oraclem19
06-14-2013, 03:10 AM
Will try the song and see what it sounds like with substage on and off, thank ya for the reccomendation.
These 6x9s won't blow out from the subwoofer in a near sealed trunk? Will see if the factory mounting points are even still there.
Thought the extra power was needed (no o-scope yet) to avoid clipping by only using 3/4 total gain?

Problem I have found with sealed boxes is how big to go. Too big and you lose top end, too small and excessive heat and energy for not near enough sound and near loss of low end. running a 12 with 1000wrms, .5" xmax, .65 qts, ~31.5 fs. (sorry, lost my bassbox install this week)
mfg recommends a .8 box... don't know if that's near right but it doesn't sound like it. Or if that plans on including stuffing.

trumpet
06-14-2013, 11:41 AM
Thought the extra power was needed (no o-scope yet) to avoid clipping by only using 3/4 total gain?

This is the wrong way to look at gain setting. I recommend you go from the beginning and try to forget any bad habits you may have been using to set gains. This video should be watched from the beginning to get the most education from it, and it's well worth your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85mWsMJOh-8



running a 12 with 1000wrms, .5" xmax, .65 qts, ~31.5 fs. (sorry, lost my bassbox install this week)
mfg recommends a .8 box... don't know if that's near right but it doesn't sound like it. Or if that plans on including stuffing.

I looked back in the thread and it seems you may be using a Pioneer Champion Pro sub. Is this correct?

calebkhill
06-14-2013, 06:45 PM
Will try the song and see what it sounds like with substage on and off, thank ya for the reccomendation.
These 6x9s won't blow out from the subwoofer in a near sealed trunk? Will see if the factory mounting points are even still there.
Thought the extra power was needed (no o-scope yet) to avoid clipping by only using 3/4 total gain?

Problem I have found with sealed boxes is how big to go. Too big and you lose top end, too small and excessive heat and energy for not near enough sound and near loss of low end. running a 12 with 1000wrms, .5" xmax, .65 qts, ~31.5 fs. (sorry, lost my bassbox install this week)
mfg recommends a .8 box... don't know if that's near right but it doesn't sound like it. Or if that plans on including stuffing.

MORE power is better. more amp power means more output before clipping. You are right.

Erikz8212
06-14-2013, 06:49 PM
Hello, Does anyone know if a hypnotic v1000dx will lift a kicker l7 15" cleanly??

trumpet
06-14-2013, 07:25 PM
Hello, Does anyone know if a hypnotic v1000dx will lift a kicker l7 15" cleanly??

I can't speak of the quality of that amp, but it's an older one. Hypnotic has a different line of amps now, but nobody's heard of the company so they don't sell. I really am not confident to recommend them as they can't even bother to update their web site.

Erikz8212
06-14-2013, 07:33 PM
Thanks, any advice on a amp i can get that is not too costly but will do the job, the l7 is in a ported box and i have a epicenter also i just want a good amp,, how about a quantum qca2000d, how are those?

trumpet
06-14-2013, 10:18 PM
Quantum is the entry level brand by dB Research, who also makes dB Drive. Between the two companies I'd recommend one of the mid-high level dB Drive amplifiers over anything by Quantum. Your questions really should be in your own thread, btw.

Oraclem19
06-14-2013, 11:00 PM
This is the wrong way to look at gain setting. I recommend you go from the beginning and try to forget any bad habits you may have been using to set gains. This video should be watched from the beginning to get the most education from it, and it's well worth your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85mWsMJOh-8




I looked back in the thread and it seems you may be using a Pioneer Champion Pro sub. Is this correct?
(3/4 or 2/3 gain as a reference point to begin listening for distortion)
I am taking a wild guess here, that you ah... meant to link to the what was it about a 5 minute video of one of the larger retailers tuning gains while both outside the car under a lifted hood in a warehouse, as well as a shot of tuning while in the trunk? (Similar to the Skar video style... like many things Skar)

Is one of the ones I run. Currently in about a 2.5-3~ cube box, 30 inch of port area, tuned to 35, double baffle. Have a 800 rms Audiopipe "eyecandy" series in about a 4 cube box, double baffle, maybe 28 inch port area, tuned down to 32.
Considering putting the AP in a horn/bass reflex/home entertainment quarter line, has a Q in the <.5 area.

Looking like with the numbers from Hornresp I could use the two 6w3v3s at about 2-300w and lose a total of about 3 db... Making me reconsider all these larger drivers.

trumpet
06-15-2013, 04:11 AM
(3/4 or 2/3 gain as a reference point to begin listening for distortion)
I am taking a wild guess here, that you ah... meant to link to the what was it about a 5 minute video of one of the larger retailers tuning gains while both outside the car under a lifted hood in a warehouse, as well as a shot of tuning while in the trunk? (Similar to the Skar video style... like many things Skar)
Just watch the video I linked. Don't assume it was linked by mistake. There's more information in that video than you'd get by reading how-tos for a month.

Oraclem19
06-16-2013, 02:20 AM
Ah now it appears. Must have had a glitch on the last time I pulled up my browser. It looked like you had forgotten to post the link.


Just watch the video I linked. Don't assume it was linked by mistake. There's more information in that video than you'd get by reading how-tos for a month.

About half way through the video, eating through my time before work, relearning many things. As far as the law goes, from your experience is it better to adjust gain from the mathematical calculations or eared distortion? I started with the math but became uncomfortable using it knowing that impedance can change per the frequency and enclosure. Is it still safe to use the mfg number for Re rated ohmage?

T3mpest
06-17-2013, 05:03 AM
Ah now it appears. Must have had a glitch on the last time I pulled up my browser. It looked like you had forgotten to post the link.



About half way through the video, eating through my time before work, relearning many things. As far as the law goes, from your experience is it better to adjust gain from the mathematical calculations or eared distortion? I started with the math but became uncomfortable using it knowing that impedance can change per the frequency and enclosure. Is it still safe to use the mfg number for Re rated ohmage?

combination, use a mixture. Use the math to get you close, tune by ear past that. You can't use pure power for setting gains, thats ridiculous. Speakers don't have the same effeciency. Just because your sub can take 1000 watts and your mids can take 300 doesn't mean you want both of those things to happen at same time of the volume knob. If the sub is 3x as loud as the midbass then that's pretty crappy gain setting, unless you just want everything running full out and don't care how it sounds. So using the math to get a baseline is great, but to tune a system you have to back that up with your ears by turning down whichever ends up being loudest.. Plus let's not forget some clipping is honestly ok.. Furthermore, clipping at the preamp tends to sound worse than clipping at the amplifier as it' s not amplified distortion, garbage in/garbage out..