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CJL
03-30-2013, 04:36 PM
Is the Pioneer 80Prs worth the extra cash it if i dont run a active setup?

Is it possible to put together a nice 2way setup for $200 or less?

myjaja
03-30-2013, 04:49 PM
I think so, its still a nice unit if running active or not.

jockhater2
03-30-2013, 05:12 PM
Is the Pioneer 80Prs worth the extra cash it if i dont run a active setup?

Is it possible to put together a nice 2way setup for $200 or less?

Yes. You can do a nice 3 way front stage for under 200
keep_hope_alive ;
Hands down has the most SQ and best sounding front stage on this forum and his front stage was under 200
My 3 way front stage was picked out by him and I spent $190. My tweeters were the most expensive part of my front stage.
TaylorFade ; is another SQ guy. And he will tell you the same thing.

Look into buying raw drivers. They are the same quality as this stupid component sets you buy that come with a companies name on it.


And yes. The 80PRS is a great deck. I ran it as a passive deck. Still gives you tons of control.

TaylorFade
03-30-2013, 05:40 PM
$200 including the deck? Or do you mean just the drivers? Because if it's just the drivers, that's no sweat. And yes... the 80 is worth it. It's feature rich outside of the active crossovers.

Dirtrider4eva
03-30-2013, 05:50 PM
some people like it, others dont. if you have ran pioneers in the past and enjoy the sound, stick with it. every company has a different "sound". whether it be warm, accurate, analytical, etc, stick with what your ears like.

Popwarhomie
03-30-2013, 05:58 PM
I have one coming. Not going to be running active for now.

I hate pioneers and just got rid of my pioneer DD but hopefully the 80 will make that change.

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 06:02 PM
Not a fan of the new pioneer decks.

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 06:06 PM
And getting something that sounds good for under $200. That depends on what you think sounds good is. If you're use to coaxials you can be happy. If you want SQ and output then $200 isn't going to cut it

TaylorFade
03-30-2013, 06:11 PM
And getting something that sounds good for under $200. That depends on what you think sounds good is. If you're use to coaxials you can be happy. If you want SQ and output then $200 isn't going to cut it

False.

CJL
03-30-2013, 07:11 PM
$200 including the deck? Or do you mean just the drivers? Because if it's just the drivers, that's no sweat. And yes... the 80 is worth it. It's feature rich outside of the active crossovers.

200$ for the drivers.

jockhater2
03-30-2013, 07:13 PM
False.

Yeah. what is that guy talking about. Even Tfade agrees that my front stage drivers will sound awesome. I spent about $190 total on them.

jockhater2
03-30-2013, 07:15 PM
200$ for the drivers.

Do yourself a favor. Head over to Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components (http://www.parts-express.com) or Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders. (http://www.madisound.com)
And pick yourself out a set of tweeters and whatever size you are looking for. PM taylorfade or keep hope alive for suggestions/help

CJL
03-30-2013, 07:33 PM
Do yourself a favor. Head over to Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components (http://www.parts-express.com) or Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders. (http://www.madisound.com)
And pick yourself out a set of tweeters and whatever size you are looking for. PM taylorfade or keep hope alive for suggestions/help

My first thoughts was THIS (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1146) for the woofers and THESE (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/) for the tweets.

jockhater2
03-30-2013, 07:47 PM
My first thoughts was THIS (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1146) for the woofers and THESE (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/) for the tweets.

Those look like awesome choices to me!
The only problem I see is that the peerless 6.5s you picked at 8 ohms. Do they make a 4 ohm version?
Most 2 or 4 or 6 channel amps don't put out much power at 8 ohms.

jockhater2
03-30-2013, 07:47 PM
My first thoughts was THIS (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1146) for the woofers and THESE (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/) for the tweets.

Those look like awesome choices to me!
The only problem I see is that the peerless 6.5s you picked at 8 ohms. Do they make a 4 ohm version?
Most 2 or 4 or 6 channel amps don't put out much power at 8 ohms.

CJL
03-30-2013, 08:04 PM
I was thinking i could bridge them at 4ohms,but now that i think about it,that would mess up the image/stereo. :crap:

Back to the drawing board

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 08:12 PM
False.

If you say so oh great one. My front stage isn't to shabby.

TaylorFade
03-30-2013, 08:25 PM
If you say so oh great one. My front stage isn't to shabby.

Didn't say yours was shabby. I just said you can get a bad *** front set for less than $200. As was mentioned... keep_hope_alive; might have the best sounding car on here and he has about that much into his entire 3 way.

I also find your coax allusion confusing since it's technically a better alignment that a component set where the tweeters are 3 feet away from the woofer.

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Didn't say yours was shabby. I just said you can get a bad *** front set for less than $200. As was mentioned... keep_hope_alive; might have the best sounding car on here and he has about that much into his entire 3 way.

I also find your coax allusion confusing since it's technically a better alignment that a component set where the tweeters are 3 feet away from the woofer.
I don't think you have heard everybody's set ups.
How much has kHA invested in his install? Look at the big picture. I hope you are not putting a coax on the same playing field? If so you just lost all credibility.
And I said it can be done. Can it be SQ and have substantial output? Depends on what you are trying to keep up with.

jockhater2
03-30-2013, 08:44 PM
I don't think you have heard everybody's set ups.
How much has kHA invested in his install? Look at the big picture. I hope you are not putting a coax on the same playing field? If so you just lost all credibility.
And I said it can be done. Can it be SQ and have substantial output? Depends on what you are trying to keep up with.

Its not about the speakers. Its about the install. Kha has 100 hours into his front stange instal. Because he played with different speaker locations. Gurantee you that you just put yours. In your factory location

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 08:47 PM
Its not about the speakers. Its about the install. Kha has 100 hours into his front stange instal. Because he played with different speaker locations. Gurantee you that you just put yours. In your factory location

Lol stfu.. I got real mid bass cut into my doors lol ya I just stuck them in. I know what he has done, I've done about the same till I found what I was looking for. That's why I mentioned it newb

TaylorFade
03-30-2013, 11:40 PM
I don't think you have heard everybody's set ups.
How much has kHA invested in his install? Look at the big picture. I hope you are not putting a coax on the same playing field? If so you just lost all credibility.
And I said it can be done. Can it be SQ and have substantial output? Depends on what you are trying to keep up with.

What "big picture"? Effort? Effort is free. Although, most act like it costs a million dollars an hour.

And honestly... if you think arguing FOR a point source tarnishes my credibility, then you're lost. I'd love to hear your thoughts on comps vs coax though. I bet my $100 coax front stage sounds just as good as your "not too shabby" stuff.

"SQ and substantial output." You think it needs to be able to keep up with a 5k sub stage to have those two? You reckon you need 150db @ 1khz?

But this isn't a **** measuring contest. And it's not about who has more money into their setup. The OP gave a budget and asked if it could be done. And it's a resounding "yes." Anyting else is just your personal opinion. And you're entitled to it. Even if it's wrong.

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 11:45 PM
What "big picture"? Effort? Effort is free. Although, most act like it costs a million dollars an hour.

And honestly... if you think arguing FOR a point source tarnishes my credibility, then you're lost. I'd love to hear your thoughts on comps vs coax though. I bet my $100 coax front stage sounds just as good as your "not too shabby" stuff.

"SQ and substantial output." You think it needs to be able to keep up with a 5k sub stage to have those two? You reckon you need 150db @ 1khz?

But this isn't a **** measuring contest. And it's not about who has more money into their setup. The OP gave a budget and asked if it could be done. And it's a resounding "yes." Anyting else is just your personal opinion. And you're entitled to it. Even if it's wrong.

We have a different understanding and apparently different taste. Ill leave it at that.

ciaonzo
03-30-2013, 11:49 PM
I also find your coax allusion confusing since it's technically a better alignment that a component set where the tweeters are 3 feet away from the woofer.This concept is lost on soooo many people, lol. I just chuckle every time I read that coaxials are a step down from components, lol.

+1

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------


We have a different understanding and apparently different taste. Ill leave it at that.Yes, please leave. Your input is ****.

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 11:51 PM
This concept is lost on soooo many people, lol. I just chuckle every time I read that coaxials are a step down from components, lol.

+1

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

Yes, please leave. Your input is ****.

So you are telling me you can set the power different between mid and tweeter on a coax? Image tweeters? Adjust slopes? Pretty sure that's a step down so go ahead and chuckle. That's my input.. I guess that's ****

ciaonzo
03-30-2013, 11:53 PM
So you are telling me you can set the power different between mid and tweeter on a coax? Image tweeters? Adjust slopes? Pretty sure that's a step down so go ahead and chuckle.Yes, I am you ******* tard. I realize that you are limited in your abilities but that doesn't mean that others are operating under your limitations.

NoLoud4U
03-30-2013, 11:55 PM
Yes, I am you ******* tard. I realize that you are limited in your abilities but that doesn't mean that others are operating under your limitations.

Well THEY are limited you tard.. Thats a ******* step down you tard.. Now go **** yourself and at least have valid points when you speak you tard.

ciaonzo
03-30-2013, 11:59 PM
Well THEY are limited you tard.. Thats a ******* step down you tard.. Now go **** yourself and at least have valid points when you speak you tard.Got your ******* all in a bunch when you should have been thinking of a way to take a coaxial that is comprised of the exact same driver compliment as the component set and find a way to bi-amp them. But you lack vision and run overpriced mass market garbage.

ciaonzo
03-31-2013, 12:02 AM
Dang, I'd love to run these but coaxials are sooo limited. You cant control anything with them. lulz


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WN6VkDoAL._SL500_SS500_.jpg

NoLoud4U
03-31-2013, 12:04 AM
Got your ******* all in a bunch when you should have been thinking of a way to take a coaxial that is comprised of the exact same driver compliment as the component set and find a way to bi-amp them. But you lack vision and run overpriced mass market garbage.
I've ran the forum boners Bro. I always end up going back to the better side. The proven side.
Why "find" a way to do something when a comp set can do it right out of the box. That's like people buying vvmes and putting more CA glue on them to even work.

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------


Dang, I'd love to run these but coaxials are sooo limited. You cant control anything with them. lulz


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WN6VkDoAL._SL500_SS500_.jpg

You can point the tweeter in a small circle. That's everything alright.

TaylorFade
03-31-2013, 12:05 AM
Well THEY are limited you tard.. Thats a ******* step down you tard.. Now go **** yourself and at least have valid points when you speak you tard.

You missed what he said. He wasn't agreeing that they were a step down. He was agreeing that on any bi-ampable coax, you have all of that control.

And actually... the coax I'm running now aren't bi-ampable. And the tweeters dont swivel. Oh noes!! I think you'd be surprised.

80hz and up. No EQ. Stage height did suffer a tad, but these are in the doors.
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/Randomness/189E402B-4C24-4442-8289-181C94B2F99F-558-0000007CF8F955B7_zpsd6a05c5d.jpg

That's a whole lot of information from a $100 set of speakers. No phase issues. Nasty reflections are gone.

ciaonzo
03-31-2013, 12:05 AM
I've ran the forum boners Bro. I always end up going back to the better side. The proven side.
Why "find" a way to do something when a comp set can do it right out of the box. That's like people buying vvmes and putting more CA glue on them to even work.

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------



You can point the tweeter in a small circle. That's everything alright.It's still going over your head, bro. You're limited, though. It's okay.

NoLoud4U
03-31-2013, 12:11 AM
You missed what he said. He wasn't agreeing that they were a step down. He was agreeing that on any bi-ampable coax, you have all of that control.

And actually... the coax I'm running now aren't bi-ampable. And the tweeters dont swivel. Oh noes!! I think you'd be surprised.

80hz and up. No EQ. Stage height did suffer a tad, but these are in the doors.
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/Randomness/189E402B-4C24-4442-8289-181C94B2F99F-558-0000007CF8F955B7_zpsd6a05c5d.jpg

That's a whole lot of information from a $100 set of speakers. No phase issues. Nasty reflections are gone.

RTA don't show the stage. And is that the JL app?

NoLoud4U
03-31-2013, 12:13 AM
It's still going over your head, bro. You're limited, though. It's okay.

It's cool. I'm limited and you have no idea what musical reproduction is. But you have some tc baskets so you know your stuff.

TaylorFade
03-31-2013, 12:17 AM
RTA don't show the stage. And is that the JL app?

I just told you my height suffers a bit. It's not as bad as you may think with T/A though. Get it dialed in and it comes up. Not everyone has the option, but I also have sail tweets that I can use for "upstage." I can fade them in at 8k, -36db and -11/-13db and it's right back at eye level.

That's the audiotools app. I have the iTestMic. I got sick of software glitches in my SPL Labs RTA.

TaylorFade
03-31-2013, 12:20 AM
But if you prefer... this is it with the sails in the mix and a little EQ.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab45/taylorfade/01433CD6-F6CF-401B-A14B-59B6E5CC1AA8-1510-000000B21A2AECD2_zps8c80e904.jpg

That was before smoothing out that garbage between 4-9khz.

NoLoud4U
03-31-2013, 12:21 AM
I just told you my height suffers a bit. It's not as bad as you may think with T/A though. Get it dialed in and it comes up. Not everyone has the option, but I also have sail tweets that I can use for "upstage." I can fade them in at 8k, -36db and -11/-13db and it's right back at eye level.

That's the audiotools app. I have the iTestMic. I got sick of software glitches in my SPL Labs RTA.

Ok. It looks like the JL one. It wasn't to far off from a AC RTA. Cool thing about a good comp set which you already know this. I can put the band in the center of my dash.. It's a real good recording when you can picture them moving around. AND a three way keeps up with a 150db sub stage.

TaylorFade
03-31-2013, 12:29 AM
Ok. It looks like the JL one. It wasn't to far off from a AC RTA. Cool thing about a good comp set which you already know this. I can put the band in the center of my dash.. It's a real good recording when you can picture them moving around. AND a three way keeps up with a 150db sub stage.

Even with the sails out of the equation, I can get it center of the dash. Higher frequency information is a little low but not terrible. Funny thing is my depth is better with the coax than the comps. I'm actually considering leaving the tweets down low even if I go back to a comp set. I'll just make a bridge for the tweet or kick mount them as close as I can (if the rules will allow. I'm still waiting on word from the rules and ethics commitee).

There's so many things to like about low mounted tweeters. ESPECIALLY if you have the option of upstage ones like I do.

Don't put too much stock into the internal mic on those apps below 250hz. I honestly think it's just guessing down there. Lol.

NoLoud4U
03-31-2013, 12:34 AM
Even with the sails out of the equation, I can get it center of the dash. Higher frequency information is a little low but not terrible. Funny thing is my depth is better with the coax than the comps. I'm actually considering leaving the tweets down low even if I go back to a comp set. I'll just make a bridge for the tweet or kick mount them as close as I can (if the rules will allow. I'm still waiting on word from the rules and ethics commitee).

There's so many things to like about low mounted tweeters. ESPECIALLY if you have the option of upstage ones like I do.

Don't put too much stock into the internal mic on those apps below 250hz. I honestly think it's just guessing down there. Lol.

I tried them low when I ran a pair of C5s. They couldnt crossover low enough to get any kind of seperation. I think back now and a set of off-axis tweeters on the dash might of helped.

TaylorFade
03-31-2013, 12:38 AM
I tried them low when I ran a pair of C5s. They couldnt crossover low enough to get any kind of seperation. I think back now and a set of off-axis tweeters on the dash might of helped.

Seperation? How do you mean?

I run the C5's in my sails so i know all about how low the CAN'T go. Lol. 6.3khz and they're beautiful though.

NoLoud4U
03-31-2013, 12:52 AM
Seperation? How do you mean?

I run the C5's in my sails so i know all about how low the CAN'T go. Lol. 6.3khz and they're beautiful though.

They sounded good, very nuetral just not for me. I wanted to put my tweeters in the sails where I've had the best luck in this car with the mid range in the stock area. It sounded like there was a gap.

keep_hope_alive
03-31-2013, 02:38 AM
wow, this thread moved around a bit!

the JL Audio RTA app is developed by Studio Six Digital. I've communicated with the developer. Note that low frequency accuracy is very limited (below 200Hz) due to Apple using a sharp high-pass filter on the mic (slope varies based on iphone/ipad/itouch version). so the app tries to compensate for the slope and does so poorly. Also, the mic is highly directional so where you point it determines what high frequency response you will have. Since the mic used is on the front, you cannot see and measure at the same time. Keep that in mind.

- Do I have a budget speaker system? yes. $150 total with 6.5" mid/midbass, 4" mid, and .75" tweeters. Right now i'm just running a 2-way active setup, so $100 total. Yes, it sounds very nice.
- Does it have an excellent sound stage? yes. the soundstage is perfect in height, width, and center. Depth is good. It is the result of time alignment along with a lot of testing of many speakers in many locations. The front of the car has a total of 10 speaker locations (5 per side). I've tried every possible combination.
- How much time? difficult to nail down. in the car - over 400 hours. in the front stage, probably half of that. I focus most of my effort on my front stage. The trunk was another large chunk of time, mostly wiring and mounting amps and the IB wall.
- Am I done? nope. Not even close. I will redo the kicks and build pods for 2" on the dash. I will continue to experiment with 2" in the dash vs. 4" in the kicks. Up till now, 2" in the dash are superior. I will likely redo the trunk amp mounting and beauty panels.
- Is the weakest link in my system the speakers? certainly. better speakers can provide better sound. Once you get the install hashed out, the equipment becomes the weak link. But that is a very time consuming point to reach.
- Is it the best car i've heard? nope. It's the best i've owned but my speaker investment is the weak link. The Scion tC is better. But the $$$ investment is substantial and time investment is not trivial.

Coaxial speakers, good or bad? depends. is the tweeter placement good? no. almost though. a coincident tweeter (mounted in pole piece) is the ideal location. Orion had these in their XTR line back in the 90's (i had a pair). Eclipse did this in their Point Source series (I've had those also). Other companies have as well (MB Quart). Mounting the tweeter in front of the woofer is not done anywhere else. Even in home audio the tweeter location is recessed to align with the acoustical center of the woofers.
The biggest hindrance of a coaxial is usually the crossover. A single cap on the tweeter is typical. Proper filtering is still required to prevent overlap and avoid the point where the woofer cone experiences "break-up", the point where response becomes erratic. That requires a low-pass on the woofer. The inability to run active is also a challenge because it makes level control difficult to achieve - the tweeter is usually over-powered while trying to get good output from the less sensitive woofer.
Another challenge to coaxial is that factory door locations are poor tweeter locations. Any place that is blocked by your body is a bad place for a tweeter.
Placing a speaker with a coincident tweeter in your kicks can work very well.

keep_hope_alive
03-31-2013, 02:42 AM
Note that the "gap" experienced isn't due to tweeter/woofer separation but instead relate to phase.

when you run a passive crossover the typical 12/db oct slope causes a 180 deg phase shift. this essentially means polarity has been flipped.

then you run a high pass crossover on the set, usually 12dB/oct and cause another phase shift. both the tweeter and woofer should response equally but i've noticed that is not always the case. sometimes flipping the polarity on the woofer corrects this issue.

when you notice a "dip" in response it can be one of two things.
1. phase between speakers is reversed.
2. the speakers are so off-axis that their response rolls off before the next speaker takes over. this is common with door speaker locations which can roll off as low as 3kHz. this phenomenon is also called "beaming".

trumpet
03-31-2013, 01:05 PM
Coaxial speakers, good or bad? depends. is the tweeter placement good? no. almost though. a coincident tweeter (mounted in pole piece) is the ideal location. Orion had these in their XTR line back in the 90's (i had a pair). Eclipse did this in their Point Source series (I've had those also). Other companies have as well (MB Quart). Mounting the tweeter in front of the woofer is not done anywhere else. Even in home audio the tweeter location is recessed to align with the acoustical center of the woofers.

What about how the movement of the woofer cone affects the treble on a point source coaxial? The woofer acts like a wave guide, except the wave guide is constantly moving, so the treble response is altered slightly. The one time I ran this type of coaxial I didn't have any idea of how that design can be superior to a pole mounted tweeter, plus they were in factory door locations low and forward. I do remember it sounded quite good for what they were(Massive Audio SK6 off an Alpine V-Power head unit).

CJL
03-31-2013, 05:14 PM
Those look like awesome choices to me!
The only problem I see is that the peerless 6.5s you picked at 8 ohms. Do they make a 4 ohm version?
Most 2 or 4 or 6 channel amps don't put out much power at 8 ohms.

What do you think of THeSE (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/silver-flute-woofers-6-7/silver-flute-w17rc38-04-ohm-6-1/2-wool-cone/) with those tweets?

jockhater2
03-31-2013, 08:02 PM
What do you think of THeSE (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/silver-flute-woofers-6-7/silver-flute-w17rc38-04-ohm-6-1/2-wool-cone/) with those tweets?

They looked good to me too! Kha is a better guy to ask. He can explain what all the specifications mean. I cant

CJL
04-01-2013, 08:04 PM
keep_hope_alive

Decent budget 2way setup?

The Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-tweeters/seas-prestige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/)

The Madisound Speaker Store (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/silver-flute-woofers-6-7/silver-flute-w17rc38-04-ohm-6-1/2-wool-cone/)

keep_hope_alive
04-01-2013, 10:57 PM
i run the silver flute woofers, and right now have them in a 2-way. i like them. not breathtaking but good enough to make most people happy.

Seas and Vifa make good budget tweets.

CJL
04-01-2013, 11:56 PM
i run the silver flute woofers, and right now have them in a 2-way. i like them. not breathtaking but good enough to make most people happy.

Seas and Vifa make good budget tweets.


Sounds good enough for me. If I go the active route, this is the setup I will run.

Bass911
04-02-2013, 12:17 AM
some people like it, others dont. if you have ran pioneers in the past and enjoy the sound, stick with it. every company has a different "sound". whether it be warm, accurate, analytical, etc, stick with what your ears like.

If this Pioneer uses Burr Brown it doesn't sound like the other Pioneers.

keep_hope_alive
04-02-2013, 01:39 AM
Sounds good enough for me. If I go the active route, this is the setup I will run.

hell, you don't even need to run active. a basic passive crossover around 4kHz is sufficient.

Dirtrider4eva
04-02-2013, 12:16 PM
If this Pioneer uses Burr Brown it doesn't sound like the other Pioneers.
quite a few have burr brown. the upper tiers do at least. my deh p7800mp has those DACs. and its a '06 unit. the cheap ones dont.