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neo_styles
12-22-2012, 12:06 AM
Thought I'd post up a quick build log/noob tutorial on cutting speaker baffles. I'll be doing it pretty ghetto but someone could learn from this I guess. Heads up, I will not be including photos of everything. I already ran out of daylight after one ring today.

PARTS NEEDED
Two blocks of MDF, one 1/2" and one 3/4"...I used particleboard from Lowe's (shut up, it works)
#8 (http://www.caraudio.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=8) (or #10 (http://www.caraudio.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=10) ) sheet metal screws, 1" in length
Additional sheet metal screws, 1.5" in length
A jigsaw
A drill with bits
Beer (yes, it's a necessity, trust me)

To start things off, anyone who has owned one of the new-ish VW/Audi cars and tried a DIY speaker swap have learned two things. One: VW is retarded and riveted in their speaker baffles as well as bolted them from the rear. They call it anti-theft, I call it just plain stupid. Two: even if you remove the speaker from the stock baffle, a new 6.5" will not fit without severe modification, so you have two choices. You can either jury-rig one in there or you can create new baffles. I've chosen to take the second option.

To drill out the rivets, I took a masonry bit and drilled down on the rivet until it spun freely. From there, I used a pair of dike cutters (*snicker*) to cut out the rest of the rivet. Once all the caps were removed, I pulled the baffle off and hammered out what was left of the rivets and pulled them out of the inner door skin. Once you're done, you end up with something like this:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G6tWZFN_6PU/UNUuRt99mgI/AAAAAAAAGYU/Xo3mBfHYCMM/s821/IMG_0091.JPG

You will use this to make the shape for your baffles. Since it doesn't lay flat, cut the leads from the terminals on the bottom and cut out the empty cup from the top so the baffle will lay flat. Now it looks like this:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hsjLLcACz_E/UNUuRrX6AuI/AAAAAAAAGYU/9nHeiY51YXs/s1095/IMG_0093.JPG

Trace around the baffle with a wood pencil (or Sharpie, I prefer Sharpie) both inside and out on the 1/2" board. Using the speaker brackets from your new set of speakers, trace and mark the drilling points/openings. Do this again with just the speaker bracket on the 3/4" to make your rings. You'll end up with this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EUyOqKh1igE/UNUuS8AFrSI/AAAAAAAAGYU/9OoLRxaGsUU/s821/IMG_0094.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7cuHG6Yh3-Y/UNUuTZ-oetI/AAAAAAAAGYU/fe18uH954Ks/s821/IMG_0095.JPG
Ignore the cut, I was testing out a saw that couldn't complete and has since been returned...FIRST LESSON LEARNED: you will need a jig that plugs in. The cordless ones won't last.

The following parts I didn't photograph because I was running out of daylight and doing this solo. Take your jigsaw and cut around the outer perimeter of the shape. When you get to the inner ring, drill a couple pilot holes so you can fit your jigsaw blade in and trace the lines you made.

Once you're done with that, you'll want to cover your baffle in something to waterproof it. Some people use Thompson's WaterSeal, others bedliner, I used Plasti-Dip because I could find it easily at Lowe's and it'll do the same **** thing. Here's what one of my rings looked like after the first coat:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MaCpuHd_CHI/UNUuTW5rDgI/AAAAAAAAGYU/LG6c3i1wnJc/s821/IMG_0096.JPG

This is where I've run out of sunlight and charge on my jig, so I'll be resuming tommorrow.

You may now commence flaming my amateur and ghetto tactics. Good day.

gckless
12-22-2012, 12:08 AM
Looks good so far. How you liking those comps? Heard good things about them. What have you heard you can compare to?

neo_styles
12-22-2012, 12:13 AM
Looks good so far. How you liking those comps? Heard good things about them. What have you heard you can compare to?

Closest comparison would be my Rainbow SLC comps (had the coax, too). Otherwise, I've had JL TR comps, JBL Power (old generation), Alpine S-Types, and Infinity Reference. Have also auditioned Focal's entire line minus the BE, Zapco, and anything else Best Buy puts on the sound board when I visit bored during lunch time.

Only testing I've done on the MS are free air wrapped in towels. They produce some really solid midbass as long as the front and back waves are isolated (so install will make or break your impression of the midbasses). Haven't yet tested the tweets outside of a soundboard, but they were buttery and detailed on the board.

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 06:29 PM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2jPkxc2UybY/UNeFLZRwy5I/AAAAAAAAGZA/X0nIoJnf-DY/s821/IMG_0103.JPG

I have to find my other camera that has the rest of the photos, but you can see where I added layers of CLD in between each metal/wood or wood/wood point, then applied a layer of CCF weatherstripping between the wood and speaker itself. This was my attempt to isolate the front and back waves as much as possible and it worked out pretty darn well. For good measure, I applied one more layer of CLD around the CCF and overlapped the speaker itself. I'm not intending to sell these, so I wasn't worried about getting butyl on the speaker itself, just had to make sure I didn't go over the surround, which I didn't

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 06:43 PM
Additional photos will show I mounted the tweeter directly above the woofer and reapplied the door skin. So here go for impressions:

Doing a quick RTA on my iPhone, I noticed that performance was considerably more flat. I did have to dip the 400Hz and 8KHz about 4dB just to cancel out some of the boominess and rough edge on the tweeters, but overall, everything else stayed at 0dB and did not require cuts. Unfortunately, the iPhone has HPFs in place to keep out wind noise, so 40Hz and 80Hz adjustments were more about guesswork.

Once everything was set, I played Romeo Machado from one of the Focal Spirit of Sound discs and my jaw hit the floor. Soundstaging is about as good as it can be considering I don't have any external processing, but everything was there and in front of me. I was worried that mounting the tweeters so low was going to be a problem, but I couldn't localize them. They still sounded like they were mounted in the sails (factory location). I did not experience any harshness, so can attest that these tweeters really are as awesome as people made them out to be. Even listening on axis while I was routing the remaining wires and the crossover, I wasn't feeling the need to dial anything down.

What impresses me most about these components, and this should speak to JBL's lineage in loudspeaker tech, is its all-out accuracy. A cymbal hit sounds like a cymbal hit, all the way from the initial percussive hit of the drumstick through the reverb of the cymbal itself and then everything fades away naturally. Nothing lingers, nothing stops abruptly, it just sounds right. Hits on the snare and toms feel realistic as well.

What these comps do best (IMO), though, is their ability to accurately reproduce various types of guitar work. My wife and I were listening to Dishwalla's "Opaline" and had to shoot a double-take at the doors because it literally sounded like there was a live performer behind the door skin. Bass guitars have their own specific presence and their representation is far from boomy. Especially blended with the ID10 in the back, everything sounded like I was hearing it live. On Deftones' "My Own Summer," I got a hint of that 2x4 to the chest kinda bass on the kick and there was a clear difference in visceral-ness between the verse and chorus when they go into super-crunch mode.

Electronic music has its own special quality, though not as impressive as natural instruments. On Sander Van Doorn & Julian Jordan's "Kangaroo," everything was clear as a bell and even when the synth kicks in for the hook, I didn't feel myself running for the volume knob (something I used to do every single time with the stock speakers). Final test track of the day was Nero's "Guilt," and this is where I really started smiling. Never before had I heard the drum-roll leading up to the initial drop and it was a pleasant surprise to feel like the song didn't ramp unnecessarily.

So there you have it. Perhaps the MS62c really has a valid place in DIYMA's current forum boner. I'm definitely impressed so far. And at Sonic's price point of under 200 bucks, it gives Focal, CDT, and Massive's budget offerings a solid run for their money. Two thumbs up and I look forward to thousands of hours of enjoyment.

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 06:54 PM
Oh additional note, btw. The door clips that VW uses WILL break. The guys who tinted my windows right after I bought the car effed up enough, but I seemed to have killed off the rest. Be prepared to order a bunch of these for replacement:

VW Side Panel & Interior Trim Retainers (http://www.clipsandfasteners.com/VW_Side_Panel_Interior_Trim_Retainers_p/a21450.htm)

gckless
12-23-2012, 09:04 PM
Nice work man. Should help some newbs out. But, where are the tweeters???

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 09:06 PM
Nice work man. Should help some newbs out. But, where are the tweeters???

Pics were taken on my digicam which I can't find right now. If I can't find it by tomorrow I'll just take a snapshot with the iPhone for posting. Tweet is directly above the woofer, so just use your imagination. I didn't use any of the cups, just added the double-sided foam tape that was included directly to the tweeter housing for clearance's sake.

gckless
12-23-2012, 09:08 PM
Pics were taken on my digicam which I can't find right now. If I can't find it by tomorrow I'll just take a snapshot with the iPhone for posting. Tweet is directly above the woofer, so just use your imagination. I didn't use any of the cups, just added the double-sided foam tape that was included directly to the tweeter housing for clearance's sake.

Ah, ok. Where they aimed?

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 09:10 PM
Ah, ok. Where they aimed?

Same path as the woofers. Didn't angle them or anything, so they're parallel to the midrange, aimed at the center console. Spread is extremely good and I thought localization would be an issue with them mounted so low, but they disappear.

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 09:33 PM
Ok, found the digicam. Here's a few more shots:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x4-cAXaCZjk/UNevqpEbWJI/AAAAAAAAGaE/1hPBruq60d8/s1095/DSC00841.JPG
Bare door, no matting whatsoever, baffle already removed. This is your blank canvas

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--Lv3eu7QojQ/UNevrC-snrI/AAAAAAAAGaE/CNkvRAPSAow/s821/DSC00843.JPG
The aforementioned baffle. Notice how the window track is pretty close to where the speaker would be. Hence why you need an additional speaker ring on top of the back plate.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QEZD0ItQ5Z4/UNevrFoPDQI/AAAAAAAAGaE/Gd0gFGJQ_fw/s1095/DSC00844.JPG
Adding some AT deadener, courtesy of cthedinger ; and his giveaway. I got 10 sq ft, so I really tried to keep true to the 25 percent coverage philosophy. I knocked around the panel trying to find the resonant spots and placed strips on them as well as a couple strips on the outer skin. It's really narrow in there, so I couldn't go too far in the door which is why I focused on the areas immediately around the baffle.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6B9E1EpMTBM/UNevrvT1VyI/AAAAAAAAGaE/3TUYRoXu-Wk/s1095/DSC00845.JPG
And the finished passenger door! I know there's steps missing, so just use your imagination and what I've previously posted. Speaker wire for the woofer was routed through the rubber grommet containing the handle pull cable (big black thing towards the top). The tweeter was since moved down to directly above the woofer due to clearance issues. As stated before, this didn't hurt staging one bit and, even behind the door card, they sing clear as a bell.

gckless
12-23-2012, 09:39 PM
Looks good bro. Glad you're happy with them. But you couldn't cut that speaker wire??? Lol.

neo_styles
12-23-2012, 09:42 PM
I left the length as is just in case I decide to relocate the tweeter to the a-pillar. There's no way to safely route speaker wire through the door grommet, so I'll have to move the crossovers to the trunk and a new line of speaker wire up to the tweet alone. I hacked into the factory wire for now.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

And I already said this would be a pretty ghetto install. I don't have the world's best patience

gckless
12-25-2012, 01:41 AM
I left the length as is just in case I decide to relocate the tweeter to the a-pillar. There's no way to safely route speaker wire through the door grommet, so I'll have to move the crossovers to the trunk and a new line of speaker wire up to the tweet alone. I hacked into the factory wire for now.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

And I already said this would be a pretty ghetto install. I don't have the world's best patience

Drill a hole, get some flexible tubing man. Shouldn't be too hard if you wanted to do it that way. Also, just noticed how sealed your doors were to begin with. I'm jelly.

neo_styles
12-25-2012, 01:58 AM
Drill a hole, get some flexible tubing man. Shouldn't be too hard if you wanted to do it that way. Also, just noticed how sealed your doors were to begin with. I'm jelly.

Yeah, definite plus. There were even some factory CLD tiles in place on the outer door skin. My concern with routing new speaker wire isn't about drilling and rubber grommets, it's about the fact that just inside the cabin that I'd be drilling into, there's a pair of airbags. Last thing I need to do is have to pay to replace one of those...

gckless
12-25-2012, 02:00 AM
Yeah, definite plus. There were even some factory CLD tiles in place on the outer door skin. My concern with routing new speaker wire isn't about drilling and rubber grommets, it's about the fact that just inside the cabin that I'd be drilling into, there's a pair of airbags. Last thing I need to do is have to pay to replace one of those...

Or have one go off in your face. Running wires to the trunk is a PITA, but honestly I like to show off every piece of equipment I have.

neo_styles
12-25-2012, 02:12 AM
Or have one go off in your face. Running wires to the trunk is a PITA, but honestly I like to show off every piece of equipment I have.

Word. That's why my next project will be a true SQ in an older Civic or something that I can get into and around easily enough. I've already started pulling off item after item in my wish list if such a day ever comes around.

gckless
12-25-2012, 02:14 AM
Word. That's why my next project will be a true SQ in an older Civic or something that I can get into and around easily enough. I've already started pulling off item after item in my wish list if such a day ever comes around.

I wish I had that kind of cash :/

neo_styles
12-25-2012, 02:18 AM
I wish I had that kind of cash :/

That's what my SRBs normally go to. I'm due for a Zone C in the next couple years. If I can do it in a tax-free zone, that'll be 45k of spending money on the spot. Otherwise, I get my current installment of 4500-ish in October.

neo_styles
12-25-2012, 02:21 AM
I just see diminishing returns on the DIY end for this car. VW did too many weird things to merit me trying harder. I might just put in a Leviathan, maybe some more deadener, and probably finish off with tweeter pods and call it done for this car, but I doubt going active in here is in the forseeable future. Hence why I need a beater to freshen up. And Civics around here go for about the 6k mark in perfect mechanical condition, so I see that as a good starting point.

gckless
12-25-2012, 02:22 AM
That's what my SRBs normally go to. I'm due for a Zone C in the next couple years. If I can do it in a tax-free zone, that'll be 45k of spending money on the spot. Otherwise, I get my current installment of 4500-ish in October.

Oh man, you get SRB?? I'm jelly of that too! Haven't had one in years. Before my time.

neo_styles
12-25-2012, 02:24 AM
Oh man, you get SRB?? I'm jelly of that too! Haven't had one in years. Before my time.

They gotta do something to keep us from remembering we glow in the dark...

neo_styles
12-27-2012, 08:48 PM
Just let a friend audition the system. He was all smiles. Kept remarking on how "clean" it was. I cranked the volume, too...enough to give me a little trunk flex on Sander Van Doorn's "Kangaroo"

neo_styles
12-28-2012, 11:10 PM
Ok time for another update, this time sitting in the car and tweaking the eq as I type. Trying to find the new balance between clarity, punch, and proper staging. I found out the response of these speakers isn't really as flat as I thought; that or the HU doesn't do the best job of keeping a flat signal. Had to make 6dB cuts at 200,1000, and 8000Hz as well as a 2dB cut on the 80Hz just to keep the mids from pushing too hard.

Then I did something interesting. I leaned forward and placed my head right at the shift lever, putting myself directly on axis with the comps. And almost came. I mean literally. Now I know what these comps need. Everyone saying the tweeters needed to be off axis were missing out. Now I just wish I could fit a pod on each a-pillar to house the whole set. It's revelatory, really. I would think I'd be getting a headphone effect but no. I got the whole stage presented in front of me. For this car, I may just settle on tweeter pods. But, seriously, these comps don't deserve to be behind a door.

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 05:25 PM
I've got a video uploading right now that I took with one of my iDevices to give you a short feel how the system sounds ATM. I'll try to snag my wife's Canon and film a better video after the Eclipse amp goes in, but this'll give you a good impression of the system. Also, I ran the first half with Pioneer's AutoEQ enabled and EQ setting at Flat and the second half with my EQ adjustments using the SPL meter on the JL iPhone app and test tones from some random website. All test tones were recorded at -5dB. Anywho, hope you'll enjoy it.

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 05:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EXAbMCzjjPU

I'm taking off for a bit, but when it's ready you should be able to view it. Enjoy and feel free to express your opinions as long as they're not iDevices suxxors!!!1!one!

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 10:55 PM
Bump. Watch the video. I would like opinions.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

West ; gckless ;
princ3cmo ;

West
12-30-2012, 11:05 PM
Bump. Watch the video. I would like opinions.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

West ; gckless ;
princ3cmo ;

I like it!
Only way your going to do better is with 3 way fronts :)

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 11:07 PM
Additional note, I changed over how I'm setting the EQ. I have the AutoCal on my AVH-P8400 for general peace of mind, but am using a combo of my ears and the JL Audio app on my iPhone with the RTA set to Octave display rather than 1/3 octave.

Also, I went back in to the driver door and applied more deadener to the baffle itself after I realized that I could feel a ton of vibration just putting my fingertips on the bare wood portion of the baffle. I haven't gotten to the passenger door for additional coverage, so it's pretty easy to discern a difference. Overall, there's a ton of additional impact and separation in midrange music. I'm almost to the point where I'm getting a real snap from the kick drum, but know I'm really not going to get there without a beefier amp (Zed Leviathan will be installed hopefully by next year). I am going to have to re-do the passenger door after noticing this.

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 11:08 PM
I like it!
Only way your going to do better is with 3 way fronts :)

Thanks, bud. I really am surprised how up front that tweeter is being behind the door card. Can't wait to get it up on or above the dash.

And 3-way won't be in this car. The doors are horrible for modification and I can't fit what I want to on the a-pillar and stay within California code.

West
12-30-2012, 11:14 PM
Additional note, I changed over how I'm setting the EQ. I have the AutoCal on my AVH-P8400 for general peace of mind, but am using a combo of my ears and the JL Audio app on my iPhone with the RTA set to Octave display rather than 1/3 octave.

Also, I went back in to the driver door and applied more deadener to the baffle itself after I realized that I could feel a ton of vibration just putting my fingertips on the bare wood portion of the baffle. I haven't gotten to the passenger door for additional coverage, so it's pretty easy to discern a difference. Overall, there's a ton of additional impact and separation in midrange music. I'm almost to the point where I'm getting a real snap from the kick drum, but know I'm really not going to get there without a beefier amp (Zed Leviathan will be installed hopefully by next year). I am going to have to re-do the passenger door after noticing this.

I hate my doors they still need work. Awesome move with the Zed. I f'ing love that beast.

gckless
12-30-2012, 11:17 PM
Sounds good dude. Like I told West when he posted his vid up, personally, there's only so much I can tell from a compressed YouTube video played back through my laptop speakers. Just have to be there to get the full effect. But sounds good!

Slayerx
12-30-2012, 11:19 PM
Hmmm I was going to throw some ID CTX65cs in my car, but now I may go with these. I did like the JBl power speakers a lot, and these look even better.

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 11:23 PM
Hmmm I was going to throw some ID CTX65cs in my car, but now I may go with these. I did like the JBl power speakers a lot, and these look even better.

Like any set of comps, though, make sure you're paying attention to the install. Can definitely be very accurate, but need to be installed correctly.

Slayerx
12-30-2012, 11:27 PM
Like any set of comps, though, make sure you're paying attention to the install. Can definitely be very accurate, but need to be installed correctly.

But of course :)
Very well done btw.

Plus I'd like to try something new. I've had the ctx's before.
Have you heard them before? If so how do the tweeters compare?

neo_styles
12-30-2012, 11:29 PM
But of course :)
Very well done btw.

Plus I'd like to try something new. I've had the ctx's before.
Have you heard them before? If so how do the tweeters compare?

Thanks!

I was actually tossing back and forth the idea of the CTX vs these and decided on these for a couple reasons. First was the mounting depth since the JBLs are a little shallower. Second was the fact that the reviews and docs I was researching spent a lot of time covering the benefits of the JBL tweeters and I am VERY picky about tweeters being harsh since I'm really sensitive to sibilance.

Slayerx
12-30-2012, 11:36 PM
Thanks!

I was actually tossing back and forth the idea of the CTX vs these and decided on these for a couple reasons. First was the mounting depth since the JBLs are a little shallower. Second was the fact that the reviews and docs I was researching spent a lot of time covering the benefits of the JBL tweeters and I am VERY picky about tweeters being harsh since I'm really sensitive to sibilance.

Ya mounting depth is an issue for me as well, I think I'd be pushing the limits with the CTX's.
I'm not so sensitive, I actually liked the tweets on my Kappa's lol. My gf is very sensitive and says they hurt her ears even at moderate volume, so maybe she'd appreciate the JBL's lol.
I think my mind is made up now lol.

neo_styles
12-31-2012, 12:16 AM
OK guys, found a few new photos I took today after adding more AT CLD tiles to the driver door. Here's how it looks now:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tTxWaPsCJWU/UOEQZNY8bBI/AAAAAAAAGgE/S-fCrGliDas/s1095/FBBDB469-A9CB-4A87-8256-D3DC43B326DF.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7yfCm80wnjM/UOEQZO3rXFI/AAAAAAAAGf8/GJHOFYZkwi0/s821/90CBAA2C-03C1-4F8F-BBCE-4A450EB6F4E7.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bRm4Xu-xb3g/UOEQZNszWMI/AAAAAAAAGgA/yA6xsONiE4A/s821/1B54D5C2-1FC3-4F7F-AAB7-E104D565F43F.JPG

The extra coverage made a huge difference. Midbass response while driving at highway speeds was only slightly less powerful as with the car stopped and impact from drums and other percussive instruments was more prominent. Additionally, the tweeters are starting to be more apparent as the weak link in the system, but I chalk that up to their install location. I'm thinking that I'll move these up to tweeter pods halfway up the a-pillar which will result in a slightly higher than ear level location.

neo_styles
01-07-2013, 11:11 PM
New video! Details of changes are in the intro. Ignore the thing about same relative volume. Forgot the last one was recorded at almost half HU volume.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vEMT0-C_hq0

neo_styles
01-07-2013, 11:32 PM
I really wish my mic had picked up the sub frequencies, too. The attack of that kick bass was visceral. Still need to work on the midbass a bit to up the impact to be a bit more natural. The extra juice on that 36501's sub channel definitely is showing its worth.

neo_styles
01-29-2013, 12:38 AM
Bringing this back from the dead for a quick update. The comps are still running passive, but now bridged on my 36501 and I have time aligned and EQ'd a bit. Even before TA and EQ, there's a definite improvement in impact and airiness to the point where you get a much better feel for the recording space. Once I took my RTA app and started taking care of the peaks (with a small boost in the 3.5-5k region), they really started coming alive. I'm finally getting that impact that I was missing from my drums. A snare hit actually has a reverb proportional to its space. Instruments have a tangible location. For instance, when I was listening to some Every Time I Die (hardcore's always recorded jacked up, but these guys somehow actually care how they sound recorded), I could tell the vocalist was up front, the drummer was off to the right of the vocalist, the bassist was in front of the drummer, and the guitarist almost danced around the soundstage at times. Additionally, the stage is at least on the dash, but it'll probably take a more accurate RTA than my phone to move it further onto the hood.

As a guilty pleasure, I also listened to the intro off of Orgy's "Vapor Transmission" album (great demo for staging, surprisingly) and you really get a sense of depth. Kinda surprises you as well when the beat starts dropping towards the end of the song.

So I'm continuing to be impressed by these and will have to post another couple videos when I fix my sub stage. For those of you who don't know, I encountered a weird situation where I can either have my front stage volumes match or have control of my sub while bridged, but not both at the same time. Going to add an OS Kenwood 2-channel for the ID10 to remedy this. Suffice to say, these comps definitely benefit from more power.