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View Full Version : Tired of my Active setup.



Theride
12-08-2012, 09:25 PM
I just cant seem to get the sound right and im tired of tuning. At the same time, ive burnt up a few about 2 sets of passive crossover because i play the music so loud and hard. right now im using a minidsp for processing and the sound sounds HOLLOW. i like how loud it gets but its not clear and crisp as i would like

gckless
12-08-2012, 09:29 PM
Not sure what you're looking for here.... Is there a question?

splwj47
12-08-2012, 09:34 PM
not sure if i read right, but how are you burning up passive xovers running active?

Theride
12-08-2012, 09:39 PM
I just posted to see if i could get any suggestions. I had a set of ID XS passive xover and they stopped working. had to PG they melted.

another thing is, everytime im tuning my system i have to bring out the laptop since the minidsp work through a computer..just a pita.

Theride
12-08-2012, 09:40 PM
not sure if i read right, but how are you burning up passive xovers running active?

this was prior to going active.

maybe im just getting tired of the tuning. just want to plug and play right now

gckless
12-08-2012, 09:42 PM
How much power are you running? What crossovers were they?

---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

I still don't see a question. Are you looking to go passive again? Do you want a different DSP?

splwj47
12-08-2012, 09:44 PM
this was prior to going active.

maybe im just getting tired of the tuning. just want to plug and play right now

if you want to run active and take all the work out of it just get an ms8.

zako
12-09-2012, 12:09 AM
If you would like to tune your sound "by hand and ear" I suggest to get a laptop based RTA setup. Get a precision measurement mic from Parts Express. They soon will have a dayton measurement mic that plugs directly into a USB port on a laptop. Get a paid version of True RTA or similar software (the free 1octave version is not very useful), once you have this you will be able to tune the frequency response. By the way, I assume you already tuned in time alignment, etc? I think there may be a software aid for tuning TA as well. Or.. you can get a sound processor that tunes all of this automatically (Pioneer head units with AutoEQ, Alpine imprint, H800, JBL MS-8)

Sonic.
12-09-2012, 12:20 AM
If you dont have the patience and equipment then get the pioneer hu with AutoEQ and TA and keep it simple.

West
12-09-2012, 12:59 AM
If you would like to tune your sound "by hand and ear" I suggest to get a laptop based RTA setup. Get a precision measurement mic from Parts Express. They soon will have a dayton measurement mic that plugs directly into a USB port on a laptop. Get a paid version of True RTA or similar software (the free 1octave version is not very useful), once you have this you will be able to tune the frequency response. By the way, I assume you already tuned in time alignment, etc? I think there may be a software aid for tuning TA as well. Or.. you can get a sound processor that tunes all of this automatically (Pioneer head units with AutoEQ, Alpine imprint, H800, JBL MS-8)

Auto EQ on pioneer isn't so good more of a gimmic to make people buy the deck. RTA gear or an MS8 is your best option. I have never heard of anyone melting crossovers... OP you should check your speaker wires and speaker resistance...

West
12-09-2012, 01:06 AM
I have never used a mini dsp, but I suspect that may be one of the issues there. Or if you are truely blasting your music it's possible your speakers are damaged.

TaylorFade
12-09-2012, 01:23 AM
Ditch the mini. Get active deck. All the control from the HU. Learn to tune. Problem solved.

zako
12-09-2012, 01:27 AM
Auto EQ on pioneer isn't so good more of a gimmic to make people buy the deck. RTA gear or an MS8 is your best option. I have never heard of anyone melting crossovers... OP you should check your speaker wires and speaker resistance...

I can't speak in general, but Pioneer DEH-80PRS AutoEQ worked quite well for me. First, after running AutoEQ, the imaging was pretty much spot on, better and more consistent than what I was able to accomplish myself simply by tuning with time delays and speaker balance with old head unit (frequency response is supposedly more important than TA at frequencies above 2KHz). Second, Pioneer really cleared up my upper mid-range. In my setup the woofer is supposed to play to at least 5KHz and the tweeter above that with a sharp high pass slope. It's well known that there will be a big frequency response dip above 2KHz for a 6.5 inch woofer if its installed off axis, and I think that was audible to my ears. Without any tuning, the vocals sounded too laid back, almost distant. This was another aspect that DEH-80PRS handled pretty well. Finally, what it did to subwoofer phase is something that I would not guess to try myself (it added a big delay to the front stage, much bigger than what actual distances would imply and then flipped the phase).

So in my experience, Pioneer DEH-80PRS was totally worth its price for its instant improvements to sound. It would be enough for most people, but there are certainly some limitations. "Only" 16-band equalizer. For example control at frequencies above 5KHz is pretty coarse. No parametric equalizer. AutoEQ does not always select a correct crossover frequency (it selected 125Hz high pass for mids in in my car, but I normally prefer 60-80Hz). Subwoofer was attenuated like 6-7dB from what I consider a good sub bass level. Bass was dry and gutless. However, the sub bass issues can be fixed manually pretty easily. DIY people would also appreciate that there is an auxiliary input in the back, so you can hook up a sound RTA system for additional tuning. So this head unit has "essential features" of more advanced processors, but costs only 30-50% of their price.

TaylorFade
12-09-2012, 01:31 AM
DIY people would also appreciate that there is an auxiliary input in the back, so you can hook up a sound RTA system for additional tuning.

Wait... wut? You can hook up an RTA to it? How's that **** work?

zako
12-09-2012, 01:38 AM
Wait... wut? You can hook up an RTA to it? How's that **** work?

The head unit has a set of RCA input connectors on the back, so you can just run cables to it from a laptop USB sound card (DAC). To tell the truth, I think any analog input on a head unit would work for this purpose with some kind of a 3.5mm to RCA connector adapter cables, since most head units have a 3.5mm analog connector.

It would be interesting to do this. I already got all hardware pieces except for a microphone power source (I need some kind of USB mic mate or something similar).

TaylorFade
12-09-2012, 01:44 AM
The head unit has a set of RCA input connectors on the back, so you can just run cables to it from a laptop USB sound card (DAC). To tell the truth, I think any analog input on a head unit would work for this purpose with some kind of a 3.5mm to RCA connector adapter cables, since most head units have a 3.5mm analog connector.

It would be interesting to do this. I already got all hardware pieces except for a microphone power source (I need some kind of USB mic mate or something similar).

I already have an RTA. I'm not following what is being accomplished by inputting it into the HU though. What am I missing here?

West
12-09-2012, 01:45 AM
I can't speak in general, but Pioneer DEH-80PRS AutoEQ worked quite well for me. First, after running AutoEQ, the imaging was pretty much spot on, better and more consistent than what I was able to accomplish myself simply by tuning with time delays and speaker balance with old head unit (frequency response is supposedly more important than TA at frequencies above 2KHz). Second, Pioneer really cleared up my upper mid-range. In my setup the woofer is supposed to play to at least 5KHz and the tweeter above that with a sharp high pass slope. It's well known that there will be a big frequency response dip above 2KHz for a 6.5 inch woofer if its installed off axis, and I think that was audible to my ears. Without any tuning, the vocals sounded too laid back, almost distant. This was another aspect that DEH-80PRS handled pretty well. Finally, what it did to subwoofer phase is something that I would not guess to try myself (it added a big delay to the front stage, much bigger than what actual distances would imply and then flipped the phase).

So in my experience, Pioneer DEH-80PRS was totally worth its price for its instant improvements to sound. It would be enough for most people, but there are certainly some limitations. "Only" 16-band equalizer. For example control at frequencies above 5KHz is pretty coarse. No parametric equalizer. AutoEQ does not always select a correct crossover frequency (it selected 125Hz high pass for mids in in my car, but I normally prefer 60-80Hz). Subwoofer was attenuated like 6-7dB from what I consider a good sub bass level. Bass was dry and gutless. However, the sub bass issues can be fixed manually pretty easily. DIY people would also appreciate that there is an auxiliary input in the back, so you can hook up a sound RTA system for additional tuning. So this head unit has "essential features" of more advanced processors, but costs only 30-50% of their price.

Autotune on the p99rs needs improvement. I did not try the deh-80prs autotune.

West
12-09-2012, 01:46 AM
I already have an RTA. I'm not following what is being accomplished by inputting it into the HU though. What am I missing here?

You can send a full range test tone to your speakers from the pc and watch in real time. You could also just make a cd.

TaylorFade
12-09-2012, 01:52 AM
Autotune on the p99rs needs improvement. I did not try the deh-80prs autotune.

It's not great. What would be great is if you could make small adjustments to it after it's done. But nope. I'll tune by ear and RTA, thank you.


You can send a full range test tone to your speakers from the pc and watch in real time. You could also just make a cd.

Or like... download pink noise? Why would that not be acceptable?

PHD - USA
12-09-2012, 01:58 AM
I'll have to argue the point on the autoeq being a gimmick, it worked decently well for me with my 80prs.

PHD - USA
12-09-2012, 02:01 AM
I use mono pink noise to tune my setup. Works perfectly for me. All frequencies at once in a mono configuration and set to the center, not too hard to understand and use.

TaylorFade
12-09-2012, 02:07 AM
I'll have to argue the point on the autoeq being a gimmick, it worked decently well for me with my 80prs.

Nobody cares what you think.

I'm gonna re-run the autotune and RTA it. I'm curious now.

West
12-09-2012, 02:12 AM
I'll have to argue the point on the autoeq being a gimmick, it worked decently well for me with my 80prs.

It is a 1 point eq on the p99rs.
It is ENTIRELY possible that the 80prs does a nice job. The 80prs is newer and has a different dsp and guts than the p99. I would hope pioneer made some improvements to the autoeq in their decks.

Just curious do you notice mostly a midbass boost via autotune or is it a more full spectrum shift for you?

PHD - USA
12-09-2012, 02:21 AM
It is a 1 point eq on the p99rs.
It is ENTIRELY possible that the 80prs does a nice job. The 80prs is newer and has a different dsp and guts than the p99. I would hope pioneer made some improvements to the autoeq in their decks.

Just curious do you notice mostly a midbass boost via autotune or is it a more full spectrum shift for you?

It was full-spectrum.

---------- Post added at 02:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 AM ----------


Nobody cares what you think.

I'm gonna re-run the autotune and RTA it. I'm curious now.

Maybe you will actually fill in those gaps in the response curve you always send me pictures of =P

West
12-09-2012, 02:22 AM
It was full-spectrum.

*nodds slowly*

I am glad they addressed the issue. Makes the 80prs look more attractive now.
:)

zako
12-09-2012, 02:23 AM
I already have an RTA. I'm not following what is being accomplished by inputting it into the HU though. What am I missing here?

What's accomplished is that I can see the frequency response not just of one speaker or set of speakers, but for the whole sound system, specially when crossovers are deployed at the head unit. For example, what's happening at the crossover frequency and near when more than one speakers are playing audibly? This could be used to study phase interactions. Next, I can adjust the equalizer on the head unit, and then instantly confirm what this has done to the sound. Finally, in case, of Pioneer AutoEQ it's interesting to see what AutoEQ'd frequency response looks like.

TaylorFade
12-09-2012, 02:28 AM
It was full-spectrum.

---------- Post added at 02:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 AM ----------



Maybe you will actually fill in those gaps in the response curve you always send me pictures of =P

Before I autotune, I'm going to re-RTA since I messed with the woofer's TA. I think I might have found that hole at 600hz.

Then, I'm going to RTA the Dyns with EQ flat. THEN INSTALL THE ARIANS!!!! and compare them.

Then I'll autotune. ****. I gots some RTA'n to do. Lol.


What's accomplished is that I can see the frequency response not just of one speaker or set of speakers, but for the whole sound system, specially when crossovers are deployed at the head unit. For example, what's happening at the crossover frequency and near when more than one speakers are playing audibly? This could be used to study phase interactions. Next, I can adjust the equalizer on the head unit, and then instantly confirm what this has done to the sound. Finally, in case, of Pioneer AutoEQ it's interesting to see what AutoEQ'd frequency response looks like.

I meant... as opposed to pink noise and an actual RTA.

PHD - USA
12-09-2012, 02:33 AM
You will love the Arians just like I told you =] I can see it now

zako
12-09-2012, 02:45 AM
I meant... as opposed to pink noise and an actual RTA.

Oh I see the question now. I guess that will work. I was thinking of using RTA software that can do its own signal sweep and measure the response in real time.

splwj47
12-09-2012, 12:17 PM
someone should make a vid on how to use the rta software and what to look for to tune properly. i would be very interested in learning and doing it myself.
TaylorFade ; West ; ge_off_me ;

cal
12-09-2012, 12:49 PM
op i ran both active and passive and really the best sound is going to be from an active setup but it does require more time , experience and tune. all that said a good passive setup will sound great if installed and setup proper . i suspect that you are frying the crossovers due to high clipping or over power . ive never blown anything just by playing it loud. please give more info on the amp and how u set the gains ?

Canaan
12-09-2012, 02:23 PM
Melted passive crossover????!!!!???

How much power where you running?
Or were you just clipping to hell and back?

West
12-09-2012, 02:25 PM
Melted passing crossover????!!!!???

How much power where you running?
Or were you just clipping to hell and back?

My guess would be the clipping or resistance drop.

Canaan
12-09-2012, 02:43 PM
My guess would be the clipping or resistance drop.

I've had customers kill passive crossovers before...and it was always from clipping.
Usually one of those "my friend said he could make my system louder" things, and they peg the gains.

That usually ends in either blown tweets or caps in the crossover.
The old 'brown cotton'...lol

Danometal
12-09-2012, 02:55 PM
OP, is there any chance you would consider an analog active crossover in place of the mini DSP? I use a Cache CEX crossover, and I love the full sound I'm getting. All I had to do to get my drivers to cooperate is flip the polarity on my mids (although I ended up flipping the polarity on my sub, as my time delayed front stage put the sub back out of phase, but all is well now). Going that route is a lot cheaper than buying a $300+ HU, although that 80PRS looks like a very nice unit.

PHD - USA
12-09-2012, 06:04 PM
I don't use RTA too often, I only do it before a big show to get an idea of what is going on. I feel that tuning by ear is much more effective.

Theride
12-09-2012, 08:51 PM
thanks for the advice guys. I melted those crossover because i did over power them. The component set wasnt loud enough for me so i tend to play them hard.

Now I have a set of ID mids and madisound tweets and i like the combination. Its just that the sound just doesnt sound right. Gets fatiguing at times.

I was looking onto the NX702 from clarion. I saw that it can go active. I like the idea of having everything in one package. I do want double din because it makes my dash looks better. I have a pioneer DD now. How is clarion in general?

okiedokie
12-10-2012, 09:36 AM
Which ID mids are you useing?
I own the CX62v2 & in the upper midrange is harsh to my ears.
There is a big dip around 800hz, I had to EQ the hell out of those mids to smooth them out

Fi-brations
12-10-2012, 09:47 AM
Op u do realize u would need to upgrade your amp and speakers to make them louder...
Also i just started my first active setup and I love it, it was pretty straightforward though I didn't have to really adjust that much...
All the equipment is in my sig. It sounds much better than any passive set I've ran

J31Rob
12-10-2012, 09:51 AM
I just cant seem to get the sound right and im tired of tuning. At the same time, ive burnt up a few about 2 sets of passive crossover because i play the music so loud and hard. right now im using a minidsp for processing and the sound sounds HOLLOW. i like how loud it gets but its not clear and crisp as i would like

:lol:

Bro. This is hilarious.

jockhater2
12-10-2012, 09:53 AM
keep_hope_alive ;

okiedokie
12-10-2012, 04:22 PM
Hey Theride
Which Clarion are you looking at?
Just make sure it a Zeff amp.

keep_hope_alive
12-10-2012, 07:19 PM
the main problem that people have with active setups is getting phase mixed up. this is because at 12dB/oct and 18dB/oct slopes the speaker has a 180deg phase shift. this is the same as reversing polarity on the speaker. you need to keep careful track of that as it relates to mid - tweet and woofer - mid combinations.

"hollow" sounding systems are usually suffering several forms of phase interference. see my build log to get an idea of how i install speakers.

jockhater2
12-10-2012, 07:57 PM
http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-build-logs-cars-trucks-suvs/536049-2001-accord-ex-sedan-its-long.html


http://www.caraudio.com/forums/car-audio-build-logs-cars-trucks-suvs/516096-2005-scion-tc-sq-hertz-audison-pioneer-build-log.html

Theride
12-10-2012, 08:58 PM
Hey Theride
Which Clarion are you looking at?
Just make sure it a Zeff amp.

nx702.

Danometal
12-10-2012, 10:26 PM
the main problem that people have with active setups is getting phase mixed up. this is because at 12dB/oct and 18dB/oct slopes the speaker has a 180deg phase shift. this is the same as reversing polarity on the speaker. you need to keep careful track of that as it relates to mid - tweet and woofer - mid combinations.

"hollow" sounding systems are usually suffering several forms of phase interference. see my build log to get an idea of how i install speakers.

12 dbs passive crossovers have the same problems. If no time alignment is used, great results can be had by simply swapping the polarity on the mids, and leaving the sub and tweeters congruent with each other. If T/A is used, this may need to change. I had my sub the same as my tweeters until I delayed my whole front stage 4 feet. Then it became necessary to swap the polarity of my sub, and then I had up front bass as intended. I'm using an analog active crossover.

Isn't it true that DIGITAL crossovers (DSP) are able to circumvent the phase problems of analog crossovers (whether passive or active)?

keep_hope_alive
12-11-2012, 01:20 AM
digital crossovers still exhibit phase shift - just before the amp instead of after. an engineer could choose to correct polarity - but you won't find that in any manual.

i can tell you that every Alpine and Pioneer i've ran across certainly had a phase shift at 12dB and 18dB